Ronald Neame

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Ronald Neame Part 1

Roy Fowler  0:00  

The copyright of the following recordings is vested in the ACTT History Project.

Roy Fowler  0:06  

The date is the fourth is the fourth of September 1991. We're at ACTT. And the interview is with a very distinguished, originally lighting cameraman and our producer, director, Ronald Neame. Ronald, let's start at the very beginning, you had a parentage that was very active in the film industry of its time.

Ronald Neame  0:35  

Yes,

Roy Fowler  0:36  

Elwin Neame your father and your mother Ivy Close. 

Ronald Neame  0:39  

That's right 

Roy Fowler  0:39  

A very famous movie star.

Ronald Neame  0:41  

It started way back in 19, I suppose 1908. And my father was at a very, very young age at the age of about 23. He was already a very known, well known London photographer.

Ronald Neame  1:02  

He had studios in Bonn Street. And in South Kensington, he had quite a good commercial business in the sense that he did a lot of photographic work for catalogs for clothes, for hats for stockings, for goodness knows what. But the thing that he really liked, and loved more than anything else was photographing beautiful women, which he did quite a lot of cars in those days. The negative that he used was a 12 by 10 inch plate, glass plate. In fact, I think if my father had lived to see 35 millimeter blown up, the way it is today, he would have disbelieved the whole thing, and would have also been horrified. He hated anything less than a 12 by 10. And in those days, of course, the retouching that went on, and the beautifying that went on with the with the knife, and with the the retouching pencil, and made almost everybody looked beautiful. And that was his particular thing. Any girl that was had any aspirations to be good looking, or pretty, would go to my father to be photographed. In fact, every underground station if when you stood on the platform, and you looked over the rails to the opposite wall, you would see a great big enlargement occupying the whole section of wall. And each, on each platform, there would be a different girl. And underneath was the caption. If it's a Neame, it's you at your best. And he really was quite famous for photographing these lovely girls. And the Daily Mirror approach approached him and said that they were running the first international world beauty competition. They were looking for the most beautiful girl in the world. And the competition was already underway. And they asked him if he would take the assignment of photographing the 25 finalists in the competition. And of course, he was delighted it was it was an assignment and an opportunity for a lot of publicity. Now, my mother's father was a keen amateur photographer. And he thought he had a very beautiful daughter, which indeed he did. And he sent him to the Daily Mirror a snapshot of, of my mother. Well, my mother became one of the 25 finalists in the international beauty competition. My father photographed her and they got married. And, of course, the moment that and she became very, very, very famous because nothing like that ever happened before.

Roy Fowler  4:34  

This was what love at first sight was.

Ronald Neame  4:36  

This was well, I suppose you could say it was love at first sight. He took a lot of wonderful pictures of her. And there are still a lot around by the way, and she was very, very beautiful. Now films were just beginning to get underway here. And in a serious way. I think it was Cecil here. upwith was the name of famous producer and producing company. And my mother was promptly put under contract to Cecil Hepworth. And as an aside here it's orange. Other interesting that Sidney Samuelson, do you know Sydney? Yes. Well, Sydney's father worked with Cecil Hepworth at this time. So it's right. So Sydney and Sydney's forebears go back in the same way as mine do. Anyway, my mother immediately became a film star. And my father Meritor as I say, and very, very shortly I arrived, and I was, they say, Judy Garland was born in a trunk. Well, I was pretty well, very nearly born in the film studio. Now my father took time out from his business, and directed a few films, which starred my mother. I remember in particular one called The Lady of Shallot. I think it ran for 10 minutes, The Lady of Shallot, one reel in fact, and what was very special. And I remember that it was sold out right? To the current cinema in Notting Hill Gate, which was in existence, even in those days. And it was sold out right for 70 pounds. My father photographed it directed it, and with the aid of one or two colleagues built the sets. And that was really the beginning.

Roy Fowler  6:49  

Do he sell all the rights in it?

Ronald Neame  6:51  

The whole lot? Yeah, so just 70 pounds was was the figure. And so very, very early on, I was always aware of, of a film studio, and my mother took me on the set, I think, when I was about six months old, for the first time, well, then, of course, I grew up like any other kid that went to kindergarten, school, and all of that stuff. And then my mother had the opportunity to star in a very, very important French film, called La Rue the wheel, which was directed by ebill goals. Very famous French director. And I think this film took about 18 months to make. It was very, very long, somewhere like six hours. And they showed two hours, one week, the second two hours, the next week, and the third two hours, the third week. She went on location to share money. And I remember as a kid of, I must have been let me see I was born in 1911. She made this in 1923. So she didn't my father was killed in 23. She must have made this in 1919. So I was about eight years old. And I remember being on location on this film. And I suppose that was my real my first recollection of filmmaking. And never saw the film. Not at that time. And that's another story that comes later. Does it survive out of curiosity? Well, let's jump out of continuity for a moment doesn't matter. I never saw the film completed. But a few years ago, when they went Francis Ford Coppola was running Napoleon with a 60 piece orchestra at in the one of the great big establishments in in Hollywood, a little art house theatre called the new art was running a reconstituted copy of loud room. And I'd never seen it. And so I went down to the new art theater as an elderly gentleman now, because I thought, I'd like to see my mother on the screen, because I had never seen in any completed film of hers. And when I got down there, I was surprised to see a line all the way around the theatre, a queue. And I thought, Well, I do really don't want to queue up for ages. So I went in and asked for the manager. And I said, Look, I didn't want to get in for nothing or anything like that. I want to pay but but You think I could avoid the queue? And I wouldn't ask this favor if it wasn't for the fact that I have a very, very special reason for wanting to see this film manager says, Oh, really? And what is the special reason? So well, my mother is the young leading lady. And he looked at me as though it didn't quite believe me. And then he asked my name, and he happened to know my name. And he said, was I because your mother, that was her name? And I said, Yes. And he said, Oh, come in, it would be lovely to have you seen the film. And I then watched my mother at the age of 23, or 24. Playing in this film, and I was very impressed. I thought, My goodness, you weren't just a beauty, you were also an actress. And afterwards, the manager insisted that I got up and talk to the audience for five minutes of absolutely my mother. So that's the the, the end of that particular film,

Roy Fowler  11:06  

Your mother was a lot of natural talent. Because

Ronald Neame  11:09  

Well, I never thought of her as being an exception, exceptional as an actress. She was certainly very, very, very beautiful. And I have pictures to prove that. But I didn't think of her as being other than just a very moderate actress. But I must say, when I saw this film, I revised my feelings about him, because she was temporary with people like Gladys Cooper, and Gladys was a contemporary of hers. And Mary Pickford, of course, if in Hollywood, but anyway,

Roy Fowler  11:49  

I had just asked about who wishes do the short subjects the  one reelers survived, you know, they

Ronald Neame  11:57  

will do anything anything to survive. Now? I don't think so. I know, as a kid, I used to have quite a lot of film that my father gave me to play with print. And I imagined that that certainly isn't doesn't exist today. And I imagined it would have completely deteriorated even if it had I mean, it was

Roy Fowler  12:19  

these were his productions, or

Ronald Neame  12:21  

they were in conjunction with with Cecil Hepworth. I think

Roy Fowler  12:26  

he was I noticed I looked it up in the history of the British film two things struck me first of all, the company, although answering to help with, let's call it close films, that must have been quite unusual. Yes,

Ronald Neame  12:37  

that's right. They did form their own little company which and that worked in conjunction with help with and also with a company called broad West. There was another producer director called West that I've done and what his first name was.

Roy Fowler  12:55  

The other thing is that Rachel Lowe credits your father with being one of the very first people who perceived film to be something a little more than one a commerce or just whipping up something every week. Yes, he had an awareness of the artistic,

Ronald Neame  13:14  

he really regarded it as an art form. And funnily enough, and I won't go into it here because of, I guess, the amount of details but he he invented with his still camera, what eventually became the blue mat, a match the match shots. And it was an invention of his that was the forerunner of what became the matchup later, but he did it on a on a still photograph. He put in backgrounds. Yes. And there's still photograph was quite a clever idea. It's a bit technical.

Roy Fowler  13:57  

But essentially, the blue screen process now yes,

Ronald Neame  14:01  

it was it was started then by him in 19, 1916, or 1917, I think. But anyway,

Roy Fowler  14:13  

May  just ask  staying staying with your childhood because it's unique, I would have thought, what was it like growing up in such an atmosphere, the lifestyle of people in that position in those days, your mother, a famous movie star and your father, a well known director?,

Ronald Neame  14:32  

Well they were very famous. There's no doubt about it. They were the household names both of them. But I didn't think I mean, I know that when I went to school. I remember the first fight I had at school. The only fight I had at school was behind the gymnasium at Hurstpierpoint College, because some little boy said, "Oh, your mother's Ivy Close Ivy Close  without any clothes or something like that. I remember thinking that's a dreadful thing to say about my mother. And I remember we had a fight with all the boys watching behind the gym, school. But my  early recollections of her being away an enormous amount of time. She went away for a year to America when I must have been 7 , 6 ,7. And she starred in a whole series of comedies shorts, called the Kalem Comedies K alem, and they were made in, in Jacksonville, Florida, because Hollywood hadn't. Well, Hollywood had hardly started. You know, Hollywood was not necessarily the place

Roy Fowler  15:56  

It wasn's the only  place. So 1918 It was fairly, fairly well established,

Ronald Neame  16:01  

Oh by 18, but this is this is earlier than that. Oh, I see. Well, yes. And I must have been younger, I must have been younger because it was. It's very difficult to think back as far as that, 

Ronald Neame  16:02  

But there was quite a lot of activity in Florida wasn't there  Oliver Hardy, for example, where

Ronald Neame  16:21  

Did they begin in Florida? I must have  been more like four or five, because I don't have any real recollection of the war being, at that time, the First World War. So it must have been either right at the beginning of the war. Then eventually, my father was called up. And we lived in Golders Green. And I do remember being awakened up one Saturday night, my mother and father were in my bedroom, they'd probably come in to say goodnight. Kiss me goodnight, or something. But remember, they were looking out of the window. And I got up and went and look with him. And there was a Zepplin , which had been shot down. And it was coming down in flames was well my early recollections of the war. But I didn't. I didn't sort of feel it, that being the son of two quite famous people was all that important. It didn't affect me greatly. Either. One of the earliest memories I have is that my father had a van, I suppose you call it with photographs, big blow ups on all, both sides of the van and indeed on the back of his his photographs. And this van used to drive around everywhere, to private houses. And they used to leave an album of our winning photographs with the people who own the house, saying we'd like you to look at these. We'll come back and collected in a couple of days. And maybe you'd like to be photographed by Elwin Neame. It was a big publicity campaign a very effective. 

Ronald Neame  16:29  

Was he the only cameraman? Or was it a business with several people operating cameras? ,

Ronald Neame  18:23  

No he was the main photographer. But he did have, no he had two other photographers that worked with him that were his employees.

Roy Fowler  18:33  

And was it all studio work? Or would they would he go to

Ronald Neame  18:37  

I believe that one of the one of the other photographers could go would go out to weddings and things. But he didn't much he was mostly still in the studio,

Roy Fowler  18:48  

It must have been a bloody great camera.

Ronald Neame  18:50  

It was a great camera. And when I there was there came a time, but we'd have to jump ahead for that. That came a time when I took over the business after he was killed. And of course, the camera was one that you got onto the back cloth. And there was an upside down image. And I remember I used to when I said all right now smile. And I would take the cap off the lens and say 123 and put the cap back on and say that's very good news to

Roy Fowler  19:24  

the child. Yes, I'm sure portraits

Ronald Neame  19:27  

and the exposures were so long that too, particularly if you were a kid. They used to put a little thing to hold you if you still, you know to keep you from moving. But inevitably they would fidget. Yes, that's but but the reason I mentioned this van is that I knew it was the time of the there was a bit after my father was killed. The business still went on. And there was the generals Drag, which I guess was was 26 was 26. And I remember about five or six kids, including myself, being driven back to school in Sussex, in my father's van. He had been killed. Of course, he was killed in 1923. Shall we do with that now? Oh, well, yes, they can. Well, so I went to school in the ordinary way. It

Roy Fowler  20:28  

sounds very conventional household which, in a way is unusual given their activity.

Ronald Neame  20:33  

Yes, it was conventional. We had a nice little house in Golders Green and Roderick Road. And I only the other day, I just went past it just for nostalgic reasons. I just had a little bit still there, of course. And then we moved to a bigger house in Finchley. But my my early days, those days were very, very conventional.

Ronald Neame  20:58  

And then when my father was killed, which he was in a major accident, rather sad story, really. And again, it's a very personal story. I don't know whether you want personal  material. father

Roy Fowler  21:16  

I think since your father needs to be memorialized? Yes, if you wouldn't mind.

Ronald Neame  21:20  

Well my father ,there came a point in their marriage when my father felt that he wanted a wife, rather than an actress living with him. My mother was always away. She was always making a film somewhere or other. And my father, I think, began to get a little fed up with this. And as a result, my mother what she thought would be temporarily gave up her career. But of course, once you drop out, in our industry, that's what you call it. It's sometimes very difficult to get back, because people forget very quickly. And she dropped out. And as a result, she was just she became disappointed because what she really wanted to do was be a filmstar. And he, I would suspect felt a bit guilty at having pretty well asked her to give up her career. And so they went through some pretty rough waters. And I was 12. Now, at the age of 12, I was old enough to understand the unhappiness that was going on. Between my parents. I knew that they were not getting on, and it worried me desperately as a young man. And I just longed for them to be happy again and to be friends. And one day, they had a terrible argument, as the result of which my father slammed out of the house and went back to his studio. At this time, we were living in Finchley. So he drove all the way back to Bond Street. And he suffered from claustrophobia. So he didn't have a car. He had a motorbike, and inside car. And I was terribly upset. Because I knew that he'd gone out in, in, in anger. And I remember vividly as though it was today. I remember kneeling down the side of the bed before I got into bed and saying, Oh, please, God, stop my mother and father from quarreling. And it's interesting this in a kind of a way, because although, at that time, I had never any thought   about going into films when I grew up. I can look back, I can see the whole of this particular episode as though it were a film. I can almost see it in setups. I got into bed, and I dropped off to sleep. And I heard the telephone ringing. And I heard my mother answer the telephone. And I listened. And she said, Oh, yes. Oh, please, darling, come home. It is it's all so stupid. Come home and I wait up for you. And I thought, oh, isn't that good? God has really answered my prayers. And I fell asleep. Happy in the knowledge that he was coming home. And then about what must have been a couple of hours later, I awakened up. And I heard voices. Downstairs, I was upstairs. And I couldn't quite make out what these voices were. So I got up and I walked along the landing, and again, almost althoughit was a  sequence in a film. I remember looking through the banisters and seeing standing by the front door, my young brother's nanny who was crying, and a policeman and my mother. And obviously, something pretty horrendous had happened. And my brother's nanny, who was called Annie saw me upstairs and came running upstairs. And I said, What's the matter? And she said, Well, your father has had an accident   on his motor bike, and I said Oh dear  is, and my first,  I remember saying "is he dead ? '. And she said, Yes. And, indeed, he was killed in Hyde Park on his way home. There was a car that had no lights, it was parked on the side of the road. And there was a lot of foliage, it was summer. The trees were very, it made it a very dark night. And his sidecar just tipped the edge of this other car, and turned the bike over, and he hit his head. And that was it. And that was the day that that I grew up, really, I after that, I felt well, I'm now the man of the house. And and so it was then because my mother had to work because although my father was highly successful as a photographer, he was quite useless when it came to saving money. He also was not insured. And of course, when he was gone, although he had other photographers, it was really a one man business. Everybody wanted a we need to photograph them. So my mother went back to work and she didn't go back into films, she went back into the theatre. And with my young brother, she toured the country in various plays. And I was went to boarding school, went to Hurstpierpoint College in Sussex, where I stayed for a year. And during that year, I did the only bit of acting I've ever done in my entire life. I was in the school play. And believe it or not, I played Juliet, in Romeo and Juliet. That's my only claim to being an actor.

Roy Fowler  28:15  

Trade union aside , I'm sure. 

Ronald Neame  28:16  

Yes Now at the end of the year, my uncle, who had been trying to run the business since my father had died, told my mother that they couldn't afford the fees any longer. And that I would have to go out to work. And he got me a job at the Anglo Persian oil company in the British tanker section. And there I worked as an office boy at the age of 15, I suppose, for about six months. And then my mother got me a job. She still has had influence in the studios a little bit. And at Elstree Studios. There was a company character called Joe Grossman, who was the studio manager. And Joe gave me a job as a dog's body at Elstree. I was, I was able to think I was messenger boy, I was cool. Boy, I was tea boy, I was You name it, boy. But I remember very, very vividly, the first day that I ever went into a film studio as part of the staff. And this is something that I really think is worth recording in a way in detail, because not many The people today that are alive today worked in silent films. And I don't think many people today realize how primitive it was, and yet how inventive it was even in those days and what we could do in the way of double exposures and split screens and all these kinds of things all down, of course in the camera. But I remember very vividly the first day that I went into Elstree Studios. I was told to go to the camera department,

Roy Fowler  30:41  

Excuse me, these were the BIP studios?

Ronald Neame  30:43  

 These were  BIP.

Roy Fowler  30:44  

Which were then  quite new,

Ronald Neame  30:46  

They were. No, they'd been there quite a quite a while. They were if you when you came to the outside as you came up the driveway from the road. They it was really a great big, enormous, corrugated iron roof. shed. It was it was rather like an airplane hangar really. And I always remember that I know the roof was corrugated, because when it rained, it made a terrible noise with the rain on the on the roof. But it didn't matter, of course, because the films were silent. But when I went in to the entrance, the laboratories were not there at that time. In fact, I don't know where they sent the film to be developed at that time, very shortly afterwards, Elstree labs were built, and they did all the processing at the studios in foreign wood. But when I was very first there, they didn't the lab had not been built. And I was told to report to the camera department the camera room, which was a little room in the corner of of this bloody great shed. And I was told to report to a young man called Gordon Dines. Gordon Dines much later became a cameraman, and quite successful. But at that time, he was first assistant to a camera man by the name of George Pocknall, I remember his name very well still. Now, my first job was to carry the still camera, which was quite a big number. It was 100 tripods, and it had bellows and it was an old fashioned camera. And I was asked by Gordon to take this camera onto the set that I was had been assigned to, which he was on. And I didn't know how to carry a camera because I learned that from from my father, because my father had bought me a camera couple of few years earlier, and we'd had a tripod, so I knew how to pick up a camera and put it over my shoulder, carry it. Unfortunately, somebody had not put the lens in properly of this camera. So I picked it up and put it on my shoulder and the lens fell out and hit the floor. And Gordon says looks as though you're out before you're in mate, doesn't it. And I was bitterly ashamed of myself that my first act was to drop a lens. But anyway, I got the camera on to the set. Now you both survived Did you the lens and you We both didn't bend the lens just a little bit, but it didn't affect its efficiency. But I think here I should describe what the studio was like. The studio was divided into half a right hand side and a left hand side. And on the right hand side, there were three films in production. As you walked out of the camera room, onto the into the studio itself. You arrived at the first production, which starred Madeline Carroll and was being directed by an actor director called Miles Mander and things in certain ways were not so different from today. A scene was being shot in which Madeline Carroll was in a bath. And so it was a closed set. And we just there were flats put up, so we walked around it. But I could hear soft music. Now, the most, the more important productions, at that time, had a little mood orchestra. Usually three, or perhaps four people. And they sat on, they were on the set, and they played soft music all day long. It's sort of kept everybody in the right mood, particularly the actors. Remember that the films were silent. And that was one of the first things I remember, as I walked past this closed set was soft music coming. And then I arrived on the way to where the production that I was working on was situated, I arrived to one more picture. And this was starring Betty Balfour was her name, big star name those days. And she was being directed by a hip I've got my facts right here by Sidney Chaplin, who was Charlie Chaplin's brother, and he was the director. And they had their little mood mood music too. And I went past that set and I arrived on the set that I was working on, which was the third one up and this was a film called Tony. And it starred Jack Buchanan. And Jack Buchanan was playing a dual role, he was playing both the villain and the hero. And we did a lot of split screen work for this film, which was very interesting in those days, and very, very complicated. The film was being directed by an American called Arthur Maude and photographed as I say, by George Pocknall. Now, of course, the film that we used in those days was orthochromatic film, there was no panchromatic film and the basic lighting on the set was created or or Yes, created with big banks of what you call it, neon sort of lighting. Yes. And the whole set was, was surrounded with these banks of a sort of green light really. And this form the, the basis is, as it were, the sort of shadow light if you like, the filler light of the whole set, and of course, the filming black and white and orthochromatic which was very much sensitive to green light, it gave an on mercury vapor banks, they called them and they supplied the basic lighting, and then of course, all around the rail and on the ground, there were arcs, arc lights, so an arc light would would cut across this soft light and give you the highlight. And, of course, there was a great deal of light it was the film was not very fast. Now the cameras of course, we did not have an electric motors, we had to crank the camera by hand. And I my one of my first jobs that I learned was to crank the camera at 16 pictures a second. And I really was became very good at drinking the camera at 16 pictures a second and was very proud. When I was occasionally given the job of doing this. The viewfinder was upside down. They hadn't yet put a lens into or mirror into turn the picture up the right way. And it also did not have parallax. That is to say that when the camera tracked closer into something and you changed the focus. The viewfinder did not adjust. So if you were going to track into let's say an ashtray with cigarette on it, you had to or either the operator who was then the cameraman because we didn't have. I mean, we didn't have an operator and the lighting cameraman was one in the same George Buckner would light and also handled his own camera.

Ronald Neame  40:34  

But when you tracked in very close onto an object, you had to in the viewfinder you would be on something quite different. You would put, let's say, a glass over to one side. And as you tracked in, you would send to the the camera, the viewfinder up onto the glass. Now when you said cat and you swung over the camera, which was a Bell & Howell, and you looked through, low and  behold, the ashtray would be right in the centre of the picture. So you can imagine an upside down viewfinder that did not adjust, did not make operating a camera very easy. But we could do split screen, the in within the camera, there were the mats to divide the screen up. But of course, the way we had to do it was we would shoot the scene with Jack Buchanan on one side, and the other side blocked out. And we would make a note of the footage where he started speaking, where he finished speaking. And we noted the actual footage on the counter, where all these things happened. And then when we done that side, we close the shutter, and we'd wind back to the beginning, switch the mask over to the other side. And then we would do the other side of the other scene with Jack Buchanan in different clouds or whatever. And signal his sort of movements and his lines and his reactions. Just literally by doing that, and when the right footage came up,

Roy Fowler  42:30  

when you say that that's when the camera I mean, there was no matte box at all, it was actually within the

Ronald Neame  42:36  

the actual, the actual mattes  are not just a matte dividing the screen this way. They had mattes that divided it top and bottom. And they had key holes, for example, a keyhole mat, and they were all built in on a disk in the camera behind the lens. So and they were absolutely accurate. They were precision. But we also did have of course we had a box in front to start like going into the lens. Are you running out of shorter?

Roy Fowler  43:09  

Yes, I keep an eye on it. I'm going back just very briefly. Was this now an ambition of yours to work in films? Or was it a job the factory went to be it

Ronald Neame  43:21  

was it was a job really. I didn't enjoy being an office boy, that British tankers and the studio because my mother had been an actress and because my father had been a photographer, it seemed to me to be an intriguing thing to do. However, having said that, my early days, were not happy because I didn't really have a position. I was neither fish flesh fowl or good red herring. The the production had its crew. It had his camera man, it had its assistant camera man, it's still a man and all the other technicians and I was just an anon body. And I felt that I been that Joe Grossman in trying to help my mother knowing that she was flat broke. I knew that he managed to put me on the set. But there was not really anything for me to do.

Roy Fowler  44:26  

You must have had a very good insight into photography having grown up with it. Yes,

Ronald Neame  44:31  

I had learned quite a bit about photography by then because in the last year of my father's life, he bought me well, he loaned me one of his cameras, and he brought me you know, darkroom dish dishes and in a dark room red light and we turned a little sort of big cupboard in the house into a dark room. And I already knew how to take photographs. And I already knew how to develop and print photographs. And then I used to go to my father's studio and, and hang around when in the, in the, in the labs when they were processing.

Roy Fowler  45:13  

So in a way, it seems strange in view of your very early success that you didn't really have an application for it. Well, it was in your mind, well, I very quickly got a vacation for it. But just in those in that first week or two, I felt a little bit redundant. However, certain things happened that later stood me in good stead. I explained that the studio was divided down the center. Now up to now, I've only discussed the right hand side, as you look at the stages, and there were these three productions all in this one big stage. Now the other half the left hand side of this corrugated shed

Ronald Neame  46:06  

was a space the same size. But only one production was on this, they only had one production on that side, because it was a very big and a very important production. And it had three times the space to work in as the pictures that we were working on. And the reason was that it was a film being directed by the boy genius. 27 year old Alfred Hitchcock. And one of my first jobs when I got on the set that I was that, Tony was that I was sent by Gordon  Dines to find the sky hook. Because there was only one sky hook at Elstree Studios. And it had to be shared via the various productions. And I think I spent the whole morning going, I was told it was in the property room, and I went to the property room, and they said, no, no, no, we're sky hook. We haven't had this guy hook for three days. It was on the miles, man, that picture and I'd go to the Mars man, that picture now No, we haven't got the sky hook now. And eventually, I was directed to the Alfred Hitchcock production, because they said that he had the sky hook. And that was when I first saw Alfred Hitchcock at work. He was making a film called The Farmer's Wife, I think Estelle Brody was starring in it. And of course, there was not such a thing as a sky hook. I mean, they just kept me going for hours to get a piece of equipment that obviously didn't exist. But it did give me the opportunity of going on to Hitchcock's set and watching for a while, a big production. This film was being photographed by Jack Cox and they had the only Mitchell camera. We all had Bell & Howes or Vintens. Now, I don't think the Vinten even been invented. There was something more old fashioned than that, but certainly, we had the  Bell & Howe. But Jack Cox was had the one Mitchell that had come from America, and of course, was used by Hitchcock. And so I became intrigued with that. Now, as the weeks went by, so I found that I was making myself more useful. I was given the job of loading and unloading film, and obviously carrying the cases and magazine cases on and off the set, turning the camera, and then you had to learn when somebody say punched somebody on the nose, in order to create a really good punch, as the punch took place, we would slow the camera down to about eight pictures a second instead of 16. So you will suddenly start you dropped the speed of your that you were turning, and to compensate for the exposure, you close the shutter halfway. So I learned when to slow up the crank of the camera and close the shutter to compensate the exposure and thus get a really strong punch on the nose because we were under cranking by 50% And I became very expert at that. I remember

Roy Fowler  50:05  

instantly. How much was Joe Grossman paying you?

Ronald Neame  50:10  

Yes, I got 50 shillings a week. I got two pounds in a week, which was a good salary at that time. Yes. However, we worked all the hours that that God gave us. I mean, we used to get in at eight in the morning, we would work right through the day, we would break in the evening at about 6.30 or seven for an hour. And then we would come back and usually work till about midnight. And because there were no trains after midnight, they would take us home by car. But we still had to be on the seven, eight o'clock the next morning. And that, of course, is a story that I'll expand on a little later because that had a certain importance in in my life. Well,

Roy Fowler  50:59  

I want one brief interjection if I may, which is that I remember Alfie Roome telling me that he was the numbers boy on "The Farmer's Wife." Do you remember? 

Ronald Neame  51:08  

Yes I remember him very well, indeed was. I can't remember who was Jack Cox's first assistant. I know that a little later. He had Alfie Black, Alfred Black. And, and I think his brother and Alfred Black was the son of a famous Black who was in the theatre.

Roy Fowler  51:35  

While years. That was Tetlock was net and then was the father called him I went to became producer Gainsborough in Islington. Right. Alfred black and Ted black, I think were the two famous brothers. And I think that father was either Ultra black or black. But anyway, he was

Ronald Neame  51:58  

he was a theatrical impresario. That's right. The father they were

Roy Fowler  52:03  

there to illustrate?

Ronald Neame  52:04  

Well, they were they may not have been there at that time. But they, they, I think they were, I think, actually they were there. But at room I remember very well. Who else was there, there was a French cameraman called Rennie gesagt. And really get used to. He had, I think, either two or three Belen house cameras of his own. And he used to rent them out to illustrate. So in addition to being a cameraman there, he also was making quite a little bit of money on renting out his equipment. Then, a little later, there was a cameraman called Jimmy Rogers, James Rogers, who I worked for, and of course, later still, Claude Friese Greene, who was the son of William Friese Greene, who we, in England claim invented the motion picture. But that comes a little later. What happened was that I finally got a job as assistant to George popnable. Because Because Golden Dawn's went on to something else. I don't know he may have become a second cameraman or something. But anyway, I found myself George's first assistant. And I worked on, I suppose three or four silent pictures, one of which was starred Monty banks, and was directed by an American called Tim Whelan. I forgotten its name. And I also at the age of about 16, fell desperately in love with the young leading lady who was named was Gillean. Dean, I remember. I also remember that Michael Powell was the still man on one of the pictures I worked on in those days. But there's a little confusion there because I worked on you know, so many different things. And I can't remember the, the continuity. But what I do remember is that just about a year after I went to Elstree, I found myself in a very, coveted position. I found myself as first assistant to Jack Cox on what was then a silent film called "Blackmail". And we were working on Blackmail when sound suddenly arrived in America. And it was very hastily decided that we had to do something about this. There were people who said, this is just a flash in the pan sound is never going to stay. It's just a novelty, which will wear off. But others said, Of course sound was going to stay. And before long everything would be made in sound. And we had finished our picture, practically, we were doing just a few last location scenes. The British Museum, I think. And suddenly, Maxwell, who owned British International pictures, Scott and his, his people decided that, and I imagine Hitchcock had something to say about it, they decided that they would write additional scenes for Blackmail, with dialogue that we would keep as much as we could have the visual and the black and the action stuff in the picture. But wherever there was a dialogue scene, instead of putting in captions, we would put in sound sequences. And I remember that a writer was brought in. Now this is where sometimes my my I go blank, because his name has gone out of my head just very briefly. However, this writer who wrote dialogue scenes for Blackmail Charles Bennett,

Roy Fowler  56:50  

Bennett, oh, yes, yes.

Ronald Neame  56:53  

I had dinner with Charles Bennett two months ago. Who is 92 I think, and who believe it or not, is at this moment. Rewriting Blackmail. For 20th Century Fox because they are planning a remake. I don't know whether it'll ever be made. But what happened was that very, very hastily. They turned one of the wasn't a property room it was a  room where they kept timder and stuff. They very quickly turned this small building into a soundstage. They sound proofed it. And they brought in sound equipment. And literally within a few weeks, we were shooting in sound. And we of course became the the elite of the studio. I mean, there were four other pictures going on there about but Blackmail became suddenly the first talking film ever made in England.

Roy Fowler  58:07  

Do you remember your feelings at the time this extraordinary change in working practice? Very exciting, of course, was it forbidding to the crew?

Ronald Neame  58:18  

It was a it was a challenge. Because the first thing that we had to do was to put the camera into a booth. Because we didn't have a blimp we didn't I mean, the camera that was very, very noisy. And so they built this sort of won't be called the sound booth, which was a sort of a little mini office. I mean, in a way. I mean, it was quite big. It was sort of like that. And with a sense we're

Roy Fowler  58:52  

on audiotape six by four something like that, would you say? Well, I

Ronald Neame  58:57  

suppose let me see. Well, we could just get we could get into it. We could get the camera on tripod on a tripod, the focus puller, the chief cameraman, and that's about it. Sometimes we could squeeze a fourth him because I remember that during the shooting of Blackmail. We had a visit from the then Duchess of York and her husband and of course the Duchess of York is now the Queen Mother. And they came down to the studio and I know that he forgot his name for the moment, George. Yes,

Ronald Neame  59:44  

it was he George George the  sixth.

Ronald Neame  59:47  

No. He was called Burton. Now it wasn't the it wasn't the Windsor. It wasn't the one who became became king. Yes, that's right. Yes, it was George It seems Colbert, that's right. Well, he was I remember in our booth in the camera booth. But equally Of course, the sound, people had to have their booth. Because the sound machine, the recording machine was not silent. Well, that actually was on the set. And that was on the set. And she was in the Duchess of York was in the sound booth. And we sort of had a little contact with each other, we had an intercom situation. Now, we could also get into the camera booth. Needless to say, a little shelf on which you could have your cup of tea if we had our tea. And this booth was on rails. And it could, we could track forward and track back. And it had a big glass panel in the front through which the camera could film. But if you had to pan more than just a little bit left and a little bit, right, you had to swivel the booth at the same time as panning the camera. Because otherwise you went off the glass panel onto the sides of the booth. And tracking was a big business because to me, it took at least two people to move the booth forward and backwards.

Roy Fowler  1:01:27  

So these systems actually were devised as you went on, very

Ronald Neame  1:01:31  

well devised as we went along. And the microphone, of course, was, first of all, it was an enormous thing in itself. But I remember that it had to have an amplifier of some kind, also on the boom. So there was this great big thing, swinging around all over the place. And there was an immediate feud started, which went on for years, between the camera department and the sound department. Because the sound department insisted that their microphone had to be right just over the head of the actor who was talking and invariably caused shadows all over the walls of the set. And there was always this battle between the camera saying well put your microphone higher. And the sound department saying it's no good. We can't record if it's any higher, you've got to somehow rather get rid of the shadows. And this was a menace. In those early days.

Roy Fowler  1:02:47  

You also had problems with lights and then didn't do well of course to incandescent,

Ronald Neame  1:02:53  

yes, we had to switch over to incandescent and we didn't have really and truly we didn't have any mole Richeson lights at that time. They were very old fashioned. And quite honestly, not enough light really, we had to double up. Which of course, if you weren't careful, caused double shadows. You one light if you if you spotted it up, one light was enough for a couple of people perhaps. But if you had a group of four or five people, then you had to double up on the amount of lights. And that caused shadows too. The sound people, of course became the immediate. They were the royalty. There was a man called Scanlon, I remember. And they thought that everything should be dedicated to them. And they were always getting if, if an electric cable electric cable got anywhere near the one of the wires of the sound department, it immediately caused a hum and we spent half our time getting rid of hums and things like that. But we also had another very big problem. First of all, of course, there were no 1000 foot magazines, there was any there were only 400 foot mags at that time. And also we had to suddenly change from 16 pictures a second to 24 pictures a second. By now of course we had a motor driving the camera, which was synchronized to the sound camera so that they ran together. But with only 400 feet of film and a camera running at 24 You were continually reloading. And I must say very, very quickly, I don't know who made them. But very, very quickly they made 1000 foot magazines, which helped. But we had a big problem because the girl who played the lead, in Blackmail was a German girl had become quite a big star in Germany, called Anny Ondra. She was lovely. She was a beautiful young girl. There was another Well, I fell in love with her in a big way. But Anny had a very strong German accent. And she was supposed to be playing the daughter of a London tobacconist, the tobacconist and newspapers shop was was I think it was Donald Calthrop. Or maybe it was John Longden. I don't know Donald Calthrop was in the picture. Fine actor John John Longden is the COP is John Longden was the cop. That's right. I forgotten who else was in it. I never there was Calthrop. But the problem was that Anny Ondra was no good for sound. And so we engaged a young actress. Called Wendy Barry  I think, Joan, Joan  Barry was Joan Barry. You know more about this

Ronald Neame  1:02:57  

interesting story. And that's how it in

Ronald Neame  1:04:59  

your words, and so on the we had Joan Barry on the side of the set, having rehearsed with Anny Ondra. And Anny Ondra would mouth the sentences. And Joan Barry would keep in sync with her. And it was Joan Barry's voice that was in fact, recorded.

Roy Fowler  1:07:06  

That's an extraordinarily sophisticated are set up for its

Ronald Neame  1:07:09  

time. It really was. And of course, Hitchcock, in my opinion, used sound more imaginatively, then than was used for years afterwards. I mean, he really was

Roy Fowler  1:07:23  

Harry Miller was sound effects. Oh, yes. And he tells how in front of an open mic. He was doing blood drips in sync with the action?

Ronald Neame  1:07:32  

Oh, yes. I'm sure it was no  there was no dubbing of any kind. And amazingly, we recorded Cyril Ritchard, who played the villain. I didn't quite know how or why. But I knew there was a he played the piano. And there was, I think we had a song in it. I hadn't seen the picture for years and years and years and years. But they still do run it

Roy Fowler  1:08:01  

on television in recent times. I've seen it within rare collectible memory. It's a fascinating piece, a couple of things. At some stage, we must talk about Hitchcock, inevitably, I suppose talking about British films. And the third, as you said before you refer to him as the boy genius. Yes. He was already perceived as something

Speaker 1  1:08:22  

special. Yes, he is. Yes, he directed three or four pictures before? I think one of them was called "The Lodger" with Ivor Novello, which was quite a famous film, it's time to read the story. Yes. And I know there were two or three other pictures. And he was very much the same kind of character that he he remained all his life. He was overweight. He was lugubrious. And he loved playing practical jokes on people, but he didn't like anybody playing a practical joke on him.

Roy Fowler  1:09:02  

With a broad streak of Norma Sanders. Yes,

Speaker 1  1:09:06  

He had a sadistic streak in him. And he had a little property man called Harry. And Harry was the sort of court jester in a way on the set. And Harry used to suffer. Hitchcock's practical jokes on Harry, because, you know, he, Hitchcock was very generous to Harry. But Harry had to put up with some of the jokes. One of which I remember very well is that they put that he bet Harry that because we had on one of the sets, we had handcuffs, I remember. And he bet Harry that he wouldn't if He handcuffed Harry, that Harry couldn't  last the night and come in the next day with his handcuffs on. And Harry said that he could. And unbeknown to Harry, they put some, some kind of purgative in his tea. And this poor little property, man went home and his handcuffs and then got a terrible attack of the runs. And his wife had to help him. But he got back to the studio the next morning, and he won won his bet, but that was the kind of thing that Hitchcock would do a little bit cruel.

Roy Fowler  1:10:34  

Now, Hitchcock was what you know, a self promoter, was he not? Oh, yes, very vain person, I suppose. He seems always to have said that they will shooting Blackmail you all were shooting Blackmail unbeknown to the front office, which I usually always is very unconvincing. So you can

Ronald Neame  1:10:53  

No the front office, well, obviously knew we were shooting in sound, because I mean, there was when the royal family came down, there was a big hoo ha, of course. And he may Hitch , he may have done the things that he kept from the front office as to what he was shooting. Because he was very autocratic. And he just did everything the way he wanted to do it. And he always shot everything in absolute strict continuity, he wouldn't dream of doing two master shots or three master shots, and then picking up the close shots later. He worked absolutely strictly in continuity. And he was sufficiently powerful to be able to get away with it. But he was exceptionally nice to me. I never quite knew why. But he was very nice to me. And I remember he gave me didn't give me but he loaned me a 16 millimeter camera and asked me to photograph the filming of Blackmail. And so I spent whenever I was pulling focus, I was, you know, using this 16 millimeter camera handheld little handheld camera. I never saw the results. I don't know whether it came out or not. But I

Roy Fowler  1:12:15  

wonder what happened to that that would be a fascinating document.

Speaker 1  1:12:19  

Yes, but I don't think that exists. In fact, I'm sure it doesn't. But you know, in those days, the height of my ambition was to be a good assistant cameraman. And as the thing gradually changed, and cameramen and lighting became more complicated, and it was decided to, to have an operating cameraman as well as a lighting cameraman. My ambition then was to one day become an operating cameraman. But for the time being to be an assistant cameraman earning and I think they put my salary up to four pounds a week, I think. Certainly three pounds something a week. And I managed to buy a little car. I bought a Peugeot for five pounds from one of the electricians. And I did 10,000 miles on this Peugeot , believe it or not, and sold it at the end of 10,000 miles for four pounds 15. But I remember, many, many, many years later, in fact, only just about six months or maybe a year. But no, I don't think even a year before he died before Hitch  died. I was asked to at the British American Chamber of Commerce, I was asked to introduce him as their Man of the Year. Now, if somebody had told me when we were making Blackmail, that I was only 17 that one day, I would be in Hollywood, I would be a reasonably important director. And I would be making a speech and introducing Alfred Hitchcock. I would have said You're out of your tiny little minds. Because you now and this is a big difference between filmmaking today and and then. But one never thought one could become a director. I mean, to be a director was, you know, like being God. And so when you went into a studio, you went in, hoping that you would move up the ladder. And perhaps who knows by some miracle become a chief cameraman or a first assistant director. But the idea of being a director was was something that was beyond once one's ambition

Roy Fowler  1:14:59  

to Characters directing in those days and indeed now, were they respected by the crew,

Ronald Neame  1:15:06  

to some of them. I remember a doctor Bert Spark, who is considerably later, who didn't really know a great deal about where to put the camera. There was Tommy Bentley, Thomas Bentley, who didn't know where he began and started, I don't know, there was Morris LV, who had directed my mother in films. And he knew his job, technically. But most of the directors had been through the thing of learning their craft. Today, if a young man comes to see me and wants a job in the studio, and I say, Well, what department do you want to go into? What was your ambition? Oh, well, I'm going to be a director. I mean, immediately. That's, that's what they're going to be. And I say, Well, you should do. Do you know that you're cut out for being a director? You sure you know what being a director means? Well, I Oh, yes, of course. And that's what I want to be. And that's it. So it's all it's very, very different.

Roy Fowler  1:16:27  

Yes, I think there were people who heard I knew I was one when I was 11. I wanted to be the greatest director since David what

Ronald Neame  1:16:34  

you did? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, so

Roy Fowler  1:16:36  

that's interesting. So one, were people who were bitten by the idea

Ronald Neame  1:16:41  

that they could direct but I doubt it is as early as when did you first go into the business? Well,

Roy Fowler  1:16:47  

I was totally fascinated by film, as I said at the age of 11 Yes, something like that. But I was 118 when I came out of the out of national service finally when I went

Ronald Neame  1:16:58  

into I see which would be what around about 448 48 No, actually,

Roy Fowler  1:17:03  

I was older than that wasn't that's 21 I thought that was the problem getting a job that we're mustn't get involved with me but if you remember 48 was the total collapse of everything in this country.

Ronald Neame  1:17:19  

Yes, that's just about when it collapsed.

Roy Fowler  1:17:24  

I was making all the rounds to the archers and to synagogue shots but not not succeeding. So I was writing actually more than one studio um, I finally went to BBC television and Alexandra Palace job and then I went to CVS in New York.

Ronald Neame  1:17:44  

Oh did you

Roy Fowler  1:17:46  

say you for soak this country? Yes.

Ronald Neame  1:17:49  

And how long were you away?

Roy Fowler  1:17:52  

Well on and off for about 20 years.

Ronald Neame  1:17:54  

Oh wait, it was much and goodness me when I didn't go over well, I went over first in 1944 Rank sent me over which show

Roy Fowler  1:18:05  

you forgive me we were bound to come on to this Yes. Yes, of course. We say more or less in the US will stay in continuity. Right. Okay.

Ronald Neame  1:18:13  

Well Blackmail I mean, one could go on talking about Blackmail I suppose quite a lot because things come back as you talk but i i wouldn't Yes, I wouldn't mind sizing Right.

Roy Fowler  1:18:25  

Right. So after that pause that refreshed Is there anything more to be said about blackmail? Do you think all the studio at that time? The switch to song?

Ronald Neame  1:18:38  

I guess not really? Question

Roy Fowler  1:18:41  

How quickly did the camera outgrow the booth? What did they start to devise blimps?

Ronald Neame  1:18:47  

When did a blimp came pretty quickly? I seem to remember a booth gret bloody great thing coming along, but a bar but you see here we have a problem. Because what happened to me was that at the tail end of blackmail, or just after blackmail was concluded. My uncle, my father's brother, who was trying to run the Oh, when Diem limited the photographers asked me if I would like to leave films and come and be the photographer in my father's business, and so I did. He offered me six pounds a week which was which was a lot of money for me. And so I left the studio I left after blackmail. And I went to try and run the Bond Street studio. But I was I couldn't have been more than welcome It's late 17, maybe somewhere around 17. And of course, I didn't know enough about, about photography to hold down that kind of a job. And the people used to come. Customers used to come and say they wanted to be photographed by a weird name. And I was introduced to them. And they said, No, we want to be photographed by the ellowyne. Name. And I said, Well, I have now renamed because my father is is no is dead. And they couldn't believe that this 17 year old could really take decent photographs. And but it was a sort of landmark, a period in my life because it was the the receptionist in the bone street studio was a young woman called barrel, Henley. And five years later, we got married. So I met my wife during that time. And I always think the one of the reasons that we got married was because she protected me against irate customers who thought that I hadn't made them look as pretty as they really were. Which was, you know, that that happened to every photographer? Did it

Roy Fowler  1:21:23  

give you anything that carried over into motion picture, technique, insights that you wouldn't have? Well, we still,

Ronald Neame  1:21:32  

I learned a little bit about lighting the hard way, which did help me later. But, of course, this the studio was was running down the company, we're getting more and more into debt. And I think I've been there about a year, at the most, when suddenly, one day the bailiffs came in, and said, if if the bills weren't paid within the next few days that they would foreclose. And, indeed, that is what happened, they came, they took all the furniture, they had to leave the camera, you have to be you have to be allowed to keep your stock in trade. But nothing else. And I remember very sadly, Barrow and I closing the doors and putting a note notice on the door that we were closed until further notice. And going across the road to what was then Stewart's restaurant, and having a bath band and a glass of milk and discussing what on earth was going to happen next.

Roy Fowler  1:22:52  

took quite a few knocks in your

Ronald Neame  1:22:56  

business. Oh, yes, it was it was tough. But then the man that was put an accountant was put in for the debtors for the for the creditors. And the it was rather a nice young man. I forgotten his name now. But he said, Look, he said, we've got the camera. We've got a lot of negatives of all of the people that your father photographed back over the years. Why don't you and I start a little studio together. And he put up I should think about 500 pounds. And we started a little studio in beach and place. But you know, it struggled. And there wasn't much work. We sat around waiting for customers that didn't come. They weren't good times. Anyway. Yeah, they were very bad times because the Kodak cameras the the, the amateur was really beginning to become very, I mean film was, was the little cameras that Kodak made took very good pictures. And people less and less went to photographers, quite honestly, what

Roy Fowler  1:24:25  

I was thinking it was the time of the slump, the beginning of the slump, wasn't it? It'd be not done. But no, this was the beginning of

Ronald Neame  1:24:32  

Yes, it was. It was the beginning. And and then what happened was that I heard from a lady and Mrs. Frewer who had opened a little photographic studio in Ealing to take color photographs. And she got onto me because I had If you know the name of neem, when the name was was a goodish name, and she said well, maybe you would like to close your little Knightsbridge studio and come and work with me in Ealing. And I met at that time a man called Oliver who eventually became with gun with what was his name. There were there were two of them that ran Technicolor later. And so I joined Mrs. Flora and we took color pictures.

Roy Fowler  1:25:34  

This was actually color film rather than my hand.

Ronald Neame  1:25:38  

It Yes, it was color. It was color film. And it was called color photographs limited and it was pretty it was quite expensive. However, I remember that a young skating instructors working at the Richmond ice rink, wanted some photographs that they would put out the outside the ice rink of this instructors who taught skating. And this turned out to be Sonia Heaney. And so I photographed Sonia Heaney when she was still a little skating instructors to Richmond ice rink, which is fascinating in a way that

Roy Fowler  1:26:27  

this difficult thing or she? No,

Ronald Neame  1:26:30  

no, she because she wasn't treated. Nobody we knew Sonia Heaney was. And we took some nice pictures of her. But again, it wasn't viable. I mean, as you say, was a slump, and so on and so forth. And I thought, Oh, I would love to get back to our street. I'd love to get back into the studios. And so at that time, there was a gentleman called Bill Haggard, who was head of the camera department, Dale Street. And I went to see him and he said, Okay, Ronnie, I can give you a job. But you'll have to go right back and start where you were before. And of course, in the interim, in the in the nearly two years that I was away, all everything changed. And there was they were blimps, and the whole thing had become much more sophisticated. And

Roy Fowler  1:27:25  

31 would have been

Ronald Neame  1:27:26  

high, I suppose it would be 31. Yes. So yes, about 31. And learn Behold, I got a job as first assistant to Claude, Friese Greene. George pugno had been in he was no longer at the studio, or he went to go my British Shepherds Bush. And as just as a matter of interest George Putnam was doing air a duty many years later at Shepherds Bush and was blown to pieces by a bomb. That's what happened to poor George. But I became close assistant and worked on on several pictures with him. And you knows I can't really remember the names of most of them. And then there was one called Happy was directed by somebody from Austria or Germany or somewhere

Roy Fowler  1:28:32  

I did look up your credits in the history of the British from the search volume. That's 1933 And you have a credit on that was Brian Langley. Oh,

Ronald Neame  1:28:43  

yes. Brian was there he we grew up together really? Brian was a bit senior to me at that time because Brian's stayed throughout the time that I was trying to run my father's business. And so I think Brian was was in the running to be second a second camera man whilst I was still the first to

Roy Fowler  1:29:03  

see what she has you listed as cameraman. But you didn't you didn't lie to you on what unhappy happy?

Ronald Neame  1:29:09  

No. Free screen lit it

Roy Fowler  1:29:12  

really.

Ronald Neame  1:29:14  

I'm pretty certain then there was something with Well, there was something with Will five there was something. It was one with the house set and house father. What was his name? Bobby. Bobby house. That's right. There was Stanley Lupino in something. There was Lupino laying in something. There was BB Daniels in something and they all get mixed up. I know the BB Daniels thing was made of the mountains. I don't know whether that's listed there.

Roy Fowler  1:29:51  

No, these are just those that as I say Rachel Lowe has you listed as dp or cameraman she just says see for camera. which I took.

Ronald Neame  1:30:03  

Yeah, they were still clothed. But then what happened was, I

Roy Fowler  1:30:06  

tell you what the early titles are. Yes, they're alphabetical. So I have two of the girls will be boys with code for free. Give her a ring of free scream. They were in 34. Then 35 is Drake England.

Ronald Neame  1:30:31  

It's a very important one we'll come back to that right in profit Dutchess excuse me, in relation to the world's Yes.

Roy Fowler  1:30:39  

In 36 Scara murder case crime, Steven. Oh, yes.

Ronald Neame  1:30:49  

There was another one that Shepperton round about the time of crimes of Steven Hauk, which Gabi and Pasco produced.

Roy Fowler  1:30:57  

I noticed Gabby was produced I

Ronald Neame  1:31:00  

got a copy of it, but okay, but I don't know why she suddenly got a tickle in my throat. And brewing.

Roy Fowler  1:31:08  

So in those days, was one actually on staff or was one essentially, on a weekly basis?

Ronald Neame  1:31:17  

was on staff. We were there was a slump in the studio, which they were was occasionally when they were no film. We I went into the property department just for a little while they kept you on. Yeah, they kept me on and they kept a few of his on Phil grinned. Right, I remember was kept on Ernie Palmer, I think it was a cameraman. And John Bennett. And we used to sit in the camera room all day playing nap or something like that. And we used to get very offended when anybody asked us to do anything. You know, you'll get into that sort of state of mind when the when you don't even want to work. But they did keep us on to their. To their credit. They kept us

Roy Fowler  1:32:04  

on what actually was going wrong. When when there were these hiatuses in production was it that the country had run out of money? Well,

Ronald Neame  1:32:14  

you know, British films, really, except for a very few years, except from about 1939 to about 1947. Those were the good years, except for that there's always really been a struggle.

Roy Fowler  1:32:33  

Yes. But Maxwell did try to make it a business didn't yes and industrialize it as it had been inaudible Yes,

Ronald Neame  1:32:39  

indeed he did. He was one of the few people who did and then he had a man called Robert Clark. Yes. Who was sort of head of the studio. And then there was this little hunchback character, Microsoft, Microsoft, Walter, Microsoft.

Roy Fowler  1:32:56  

Now Sidney gilliat has always come back to Sydney again, it is scathing about someone of whom I know nothing, and he always refers to him as John Cort Appleby thought.

Ronald Neame  1:33:05  

Yes, it was terrible. Ryan, we used to thought it was Boss Man of the studio. That was before a man called Stapleton came along. But thought was boss man, Joe Grossman, was under him. He was the studio manager. And I remember a poem that went to how do you do? Thorpe and Grossman? How'd you do? One comes from Yorkshire ones that do you say around the square, but you're a dirty, lousy pair. How do you do Kretzmann? How do you do? It's funny. I've never I haven't thought about that. For

Roy Fowler  1:33:46  

years, they were both given to malapropisms. I think so.

Ronald Neame  1:33:52  

Well, Joe's famous one was when he showed the king of Greece around the studio. And said when he was described as something technical, of course, you can be all Greek to us. He said yes, I think that was and he was also ahead of the fire brigade. Yes. And when B and D burnt down, which is much later, of course. All these houses, there wasn't enough pressure. So the studios broke down. And that's a lot almost the last thing I remember about Joe. And I remember when the studios did burn down that Walter microf was watching the fire instead. I wish the negative review last film was on their running because you got insurance on it and it was a lousy picture. But coming back. Freeze became freeze drank very heavily. And just as his father had done before him, William prescreen, he was obviously in the family and Claude became quite ill But he's still went on working. And we came to this picture after all those that you've mentioned, we came to Drake of England, which starred Matheson Lang. And the thenI, sila played Queen Elizabeth I think. And freeze was becoming more and more ill, and was, was quite frankly, drinking more and more. And he used to literally fall asleep on the set. And when he fell asleep, I used to take over the lighting with the chief electrician, and we would carry on, and then freeze would wake up and say what's happening and we'd say, well, we more or less got this together, freeze, and then he, he became a little irritable with me, as though I was sort of interfering in the lighting, which I wasn't. However, it did help me a great deal because I almost had the responsibility of lighting the film. Without the I had the enjoyment of lighting the film without the responsibility, because Friese Greene was the cameraman. And I suppose we must have been about two thirds of the way through the picture. When frieze collapsed on the set, and had to be taken off to hospital. Now by this time, there was a man called PC Stapleton, I think he was was, was head of the studio Thorpe had gone. And Grossman had died, I think. And Stapleton called me to his office as when freeze was taken to hospital and he said, Ronnie, do you think you could cope with it? Do you think you could take on the lighting? And what I didn't know about lighting would have filled volumes. But you know, one. I said, Yes, of course, I'm sure I could. And he said, Alright, then you take on the lighting. And he said, We won't raise your salary. Now. My salary, by the way, was by now was about eight pounds a week, I think. Because I remember saying to, to Barrow, who I hadn't, hadn't married up to now is a hand married by the time of Drake camp. Yes, I have. By the time Drake of England came, I was married. And we were eight pounds a week. And I remember saying to Barrow if I need 10 pounds a week, we'd really be quite comfortably off. And indeed, we were just quite a good salary that however Stapledon, I remember said, Well, we're not going to give you a rise in salary, but we'll give you a bonus at the end of the picture. And when at the end of the picture came he gave me a bonus of 40 pounds, I remember that was my bonus. So which which will put my salary up to about 12 pounds a week, which is what I what I got as director of photography on that on that first film. And it was a wonderful experience. And I took courage in and in and lit it. Not in the way that freeze lit it. But I found out through experiment really, that the best highlight to highlight people was one that was just above the camera, just slightly three quarters, which gave you particularly with women gave a nice sort of shadow this side if you're the camera and a little filler light and it was a much simpler form of lighting than freeze had used. And therefore was quicker. And I really succeeded quite well. Now let me see who is the director on Drake of England. I think it might have been Arthur woods. But that you can you can check up because one does get a little mixed up with names. Now almost immediately after that. I was given the chance of photographing invitation to the walls, starring Lillian Harvey and I think that was the one that was directed by Dr. Mertz back and it was indeed a musical. Oh, a ballet too. And that was was rather good. I made Lillian Harvey looked good and she had her brother working in the studio at that time, I forgotten what his name was that he was a Harvey obviously. And by now, you know, I mean, we were, we were quite efficient really, the whole operation was quite efficient. I don't know that I can remember much more about it except that it went very smoothly the picture

Roy Fowler  1:40:29  

about technique you would consider yourself still to be learning your art and craft presumably, in the extent to which one was high bound by equipment. Stocks, for example, we still dreadfully

Ronald Neame  1:40:43  

dreadfully hide bound by equipment, I remember that. Even then, we didn't have any metal Richardson lives. And we were using by now again, we were using big arc lights, they had vanished to kill the hammer on the art glass, I don't know how they put in some kind of condenser or something. And, but I remember that the they were very uneven that the the, the the center was, was dark. I mean, if you put a beam of light on that wall from an arc, the center was dark because the the carbons were in the center of the light and they created a sort of kind of a shadow in the center. And the edges would were too bright. So that somebody walking through the arc on the set an actor or an actress, they would go through a bright spot into a dark area into a bright area again. And I remember we devised filters for the arcs that that cut down the brightness of the of the surround of the edges to try and get a fairly even light. But the they were terribly difficult to handle and I'm astonished when I look back at some of these films how good they were were photographically bearing in mind the difficulty that we had with the equipment and the stocks to plan the stock which was of course very slow. But there was no no decent equipment at all. It was panchromatic by now. But that at that time that's about all I remember was

Roy Fowler  1:42:50  

the ever thought of a house style or a studio style it was three because in those days already in Hollywood there were looks to invade various studios when Yes,

Ronald Neame  1:43:02  

I suppose. I guess not really because there was too much change going on all the time. The lab was now operating right now the lab is now operating but of course there was no real strict control of temperature and and and the bath they would use the bath after they'd already become had too much film through it. And we'd get these terrible battles between the lab and the cameraman the lab saying Well of course you underexposed it. And the cameraman saying I didn't under expose it, you underdeveloped it. And we didn't have a meter, there wasn't such a thing as a meter. So you had to judge your yourself with your eyes. And that was very difficult because it was fine in the morning when you came in, and your eyes were good and fresh. But as the day went, went on, your eyes became tired and and you found that you that the light seemed brighter than they really were. And when you broke for supper in the evening, and you'd come back after supper onto the set, they all look terribly bright. So you'd find yourself cutting them down. And then Indeed you were under exposing. And I devised what I thought was quite a clever idea. I don't remember anybody else doing it. I would, whatever the wall of the set was, let's say it was all paper or whatever. I would sling up above the set A flat that was had the same wallpaper on as the set. And first thing in the morning when I came in, I would put a light on that flat at the same strength as all the lighting on the set. And I would never move that light or that flat. And so I was was able to bring the lighting up or down to match what I knew was a constant. And it was quite a clever idea, I must say, but there was certainly no no meters at that time. Now of

Roy Fowler  1:45:15  

course it was Do you have the benefit of a pangloss? Yes,

Ronald Neame  1:45:19  

yes, yes, I did have a pint glass, I always lit through the plain glass I, I I was much better at judging light. When I was looking at it through a pint glass, in fact, it was always stuck to my eye. But of course, it was. Well, no, it was earlier than this. And now I have to go back to Blackmail. Because during Blackmail, as I say we worked all hours. We used to work always till midnight. And Hitchcock was a great bon vivre even then, I mean, Hitchcock loved his good food. And he liked good wine and all of this. And he used to break in the evenings at around about seven o'clock, and he and his stars. And sometimes jet Cox were driving to Elstree to the plow, I think it was called the plow in Elstree where they had ordered dinner for them. And he and his, his artists would have a splendid meal, which took approximately an hour, an hour and a half. And we asked Junior characters were given one in six months to go out and buy a sandwich. And we used to go down to the crown in Boreham wood, because you could get a decent sandwich there and a glass of beer, and it only cost you one six months. But it was there that we had a meeting one day and said, This is not fair. This is really forced labour, because was no such thing as overtime, or anything like that. And it was right there. And then that the beginnings of the ACTT occurred, I don't know whether you've whether many other people have mentioned this, because there must have been eight or nine of us, or perhaps 10 of us,

Roy Fowler  1:47:27  

well, your account will be very valuable.

Ronald Neame  1:47:31  

Well, we just started to chat. And we said we we just they didn't really is becoming forced labor because we would go back and win them. We'd sit on the set probably for half an hour, and then Hitchcock would arrive back with his characters having had a lovely dinner, and a few glasses of wine. And then we'd start again, and then we'd go on till 1212 31, sometimes even two o'clock, and then we'd be taking him back car and we went back the next morning. And so we decided that we should we ought to form a union of some kind. And I think we linked up at some point with people from Goma people from Shepherds Bush. Now I didn't I can't remember the name of the first man who became the sort of the cheerleader or the sort of the man who helped form the union. Well,

Roy Fowler  1:48:28  

possibly two names here was Sydney Cole was was Sydney

Ronald Neame  1:48:32  

I don't think was there yet. Although Sydney was very early on. arthrogram No, arthrogram was there. Yes. But no, I meant who really set him was before George Elvin. Oh, I see.

Roy Fowler  1:48:46  

The Union itself. Yes. There was a an enigmatic character called Captain coke.

Ronald Neame  1:48:53  

That's the man. That's the man. Captain ko power. It was a bit of a road. Yes. I'm sure it was a bit of a rogue. But it was Captain cope that that because I remember he was a captain. And

Roy Fowler  1:49:06  

there was he has some sort of Kabul cafe in on Shepherds Bush green, I believe. And that's the

Ronald Neame  1:49:12  

southern connection we've got. Really yes, they

Roy Fowler  1:49:16  

used to congregate there. And out of that apparently came out

Ronald Neame  1:49:20  

of that came the ACTT of which we all became founding members. I must have been member number four and number five in those those days. Yes, right right at the beginning. But you know, as I talk, it's extraordinary. The different things that come back because I've lived, I remember, but

Roy Fowler  1:49:40  

I have no hesitation about doubling back. Well, I remember

Ronald Neame  1:49:44  

there were two films that I worked on in the very, very, very early days. One was called McClaskey, the Sea Rover and the other was called the tragedy of the Carrasco and it was based upon On tragedy of the Carrasco, which was a novel, a famous novel, I don't think it was Conan Doyle, but somebody like that. And in McClaskey, the Sea Rover, I had my first experience of a location. It's an overseas location. We went by train to Genoa. And we got on a boat in Genoa and went over to Tripoli. And we arrived in AAA, and we had a whole lot of guns with us, because it was a story of the desert and Arabs and what have you. And all our equipment was seized in Tripoli, including all the guns. And we were told that there was no way that we could take guns into the desert and give them to Arabs, because their guns would just disappear. And it would also be very dangerous. And I think we sat in Tripoli for about 10 days, waiting for the studio to try and do something. The studio couldn't do anything. And so we literally sat for 10 days, and we had we just played cars, we just had drinks. And it's funny the good things that one can remember, I remember we had a little 13 year old couldn't have been more than 13 year old number boy, called Skeets Kelly. And I remember and it's such a ridiculous thing to remember. And it's really got nothing to do with this. But Skeets had a terrible problem. He got banged up, and he couldn't go to the loo. And hadn't been for six or seven days. And it became the talk of the unit, you know, because we had nothing else to talk about. And I remember the landlady of this rather sleazy hotel that we were all staying in saying, Look, I have to help this boy because something has to be done. And I can remember absolutely vividly the whole of the camera department, going up with the landlady to Skeets Kelly's room, and all helping to give him an enema so that he could straighten himself out. And it's funny that one should remember something like that all these years, bam. And skates Of course, as we all know, became fine, aerial photographer, and then I came in and finally killed himself and falling out of a plane. But I was remember that and at the end of the 10 days, the studio's had come back home. And so we all went back again, and I stopped in Sicily, because they took the equipment in Sicily again. And I stayed there for three or four days and had a wonderful four days and Sicily and finally got the equipment back to England and the film was was canceled. And it was made later. Sounds

Roy Fowler  1:53:04  

big stuff for those day. Oh, yeah, kind of location.

Ronald Neame  1:53:07  

Yes, it was. And then the other one was directed by Norman Walker. He was also Captain Captain Norman Walker. They all call themselves captains when because they'd been in the First World War. And they still carried their title

Roy Fowler  1:53:24  

rather like the the Second World War when there was Colonel Zanuck and Niger Warner and yes, absolutely.

Ronald Neame  1:53:32  

And the service one that was directed by normal Walker, we went to Cairo. We went by by ship to portside, from London had a wonderful sea voyage, stopped in Marseille for a few hours, and I can't even remember the still man's name because he was ex navy. His name was BT I can't remember his first name. But anyway, we got to portside. And then we went to Cairo. And we charted from Thomas Cook and sons, a boat, which house the entire unit and we went up the Nile. As far as the second cataract as far as Wedi. Helfer, we shot in Luxor. And it was really a very, very big production for those days. God knows what it was like, I never remember seeing it. And I never remember hearing anybody else saw it. But nevertheless, we had a splendid location. And then that was very early on that was really early on.

Roy Fowler  1:54:52  

Most of its sheer bloody hell working on location in those days again with the condescending equipment and generally Yes,

Ronald Neame  1:54:58  

it was. It was is heavy going well, we, we didn't have we didn't take lights, we just took reflectors. I don't remember any lighting equipment at that time, it was just all reflectors. But we did take, you know, three or four electricians with us. But then you see a big unit. In those days, a big unit was 30 to 30 people. I remember going on a location here to Sussex, we were we made a film called bill the Conqueror that freeze photographed. And I remember I thought, Callie, we got an enormous unit. And there were about 34 of us, including all the actors.

Roy Fowler  1:55:46  

Did a unit live well on location in those days? Yes, they certainly do. Now,

Ronald Neame  1:55:50  

yes, we even in those days, we cannot remember. Captain normal. Walker liked his comforts as much as as Alfred Hitchcock. And so when we were shooting in the desert, the cooking staff, the chefs and all of that of the Thomas Cook luxury boat that we all lived on. They would bring food and out to the desert, and then big marquee was put up on and we would sit and have good food. It was it was very wet. Very well done.

Roy Fowler  1:56:25  

Would you take a son truck with you

Ronald Neame  1:56:27  

on? Yes, yes, we took sound which of course had become more sophisticated by them? Yes. At least when I say to God, I'm right about that. He got it wasn't may have been a silent film. You see, this is where the time factor starts to get in the way of my memory. Because I don't always remember remember how how many pictures I worked on silent. And and there's there's a borderline case memory there, which is difficult

Roy Fowler  1:57:07  

not to worry about. But maybe a brief thumbnail sketch of Walker because was he not somehow close eventually to Jonathan rank? I think he was Was he a devout Christian or is yes was involved. At

Ronald Neame  1:57:24  

times, there came a time when he became an executive. For the rank organization. I even think he was for a time he ain't think he's still there Pinewood after there was a long gap that were I don't remember seeing him. And then I I saw him again Pinewood. And I seem to remember him saying, Ronnie, you look like a character out of Dickens. So I must have been much older when when I remember him. He was a rather he was very much an army. He had been captured in the army and he conducted his unit a little bit as though we were you know, up his that he was the commander a little little bit like that. I remember that he was having a relationship with whoever the girl was that was playing lead in the film. And I know that all us young men were pretty envious because there were no girls around the place. But that's that's really all I remember about that. But there are flashes that come back of all those early films. I remember. Will five and Bennett what was there was a comedian called Billy Lippincott. Yes. The two of them were in the same film and I remember us doing a scene. We were on location somewhere like Brighton on the pier, and these two were in the Dodgems together, you know the Dodgems this thing. And we were filming them and the camera was on on the side but but actually on the track and the Dodgems were going around us and I remember hearing will five saying to Billy Bennett Do you want another day tomorrow and Billy Bennett said why not and they ran into the camera. And it's just time to stop because by now we will restrict it very much to our hours work. I mean the the pendulum swung the other way when the when the union when the ACTT became stronger. They made up for all the years that the management really that early in. Yes, it was pretty early when they once they were underway. They they really restricted us. But then what happened after To invitation to the walls. It was just about then that the creditor quickie period came in. And if you remember, and I'm sure this must be very, very well recorded, but their parliament passed legislation that demanded that I think it was 25%. That, but I'm not sure the percentage it whether it was 25%, or whether it was even more than 25 cents, it could even have been up to 50%. Miller den thinks of all screen time, all the theaters had to show British film. And if they didn't keep their quota or British films, they got into into heavy trouble because it was a government decree. And of course, America were very quick to catch on to this problem. And so that was why every American company formed a British company that was paramount, who worked at Pinewood was 20th Century Fox, who owned Wembley and MGM Of course, by now had the, we're building very shortly afterwards, the MGM Studios to Boston would also and the system was this, the Americans would, first of all, they appoint, they appointed the head of a studio here. I remember I forgotten, forgotten the name of the head of L Street, but a very, very of Wembley, but a very, very nice man. And they want it films of 5000 feet in length. And they would hire a British producer, and they would pay him a pound a foot. So you would have a producer who would make a 5000 foot film, for which he was given 5000 pounds by the British company, which was owned by the American company. Well, the producer would then make the film for 4000. And he would pocket 1000 for himself. So he was doing very well he could make because we made these pictures in 10 days at the most, sometimes only a week. And so there was 1000 pounds profit for a producer. And when they became very busy, because 20th Century Fox, we're making a lot of quick pictures. And they offered me the fantastic salary of of 25 pounds a week, I had only been with my bonus. My salary at Elstree was about 12 pounds between 12 and 15 pounds a week. By the time I'd finished invitation to the walls, and Wembley approached me and said, Why don't you come and be a cameraman at our place? We need to we have one. And we need the second one because we're pictures are almost overlapping one picture finishes another one starts, because they were making about 20 films a year then all quota quickies and the other camera man there was was Roy Kalina. Do you remember that? Yesterday, who buried later on married Pamela Mason. And during the same period of time, Pamela met James Mason. Yes, Pamela Ostra. Sorry, Mary PAM rostrum, who later became Pamela Mason. And so I went to join Wembley now, what could happen was that they would make this picture this greater picture. And let's say let's doesn't matter which city we take, let's take the Plaza Theatre in the Haymarket low Regent Street, whichever it is, they would put the British code a picture on the screen at about eight in the morning. When the cleaners were cleaning out the theater and they would run it. Sometimes they would run it twice. And they would then pull it off because they are now done. They're 25% of screen time. With a British picture, they would then put on their American release whatever it may be. And the British picture would would be put into cans until the following morning when it was once again shown to the cleaners. And that's how they got around this law was very clever. But it did give us a wonderful experience, because we had to work very fast. And we used to be quite proud, really, because the way we used to judge the film was the fact that it was made in one week. And although they weren't great films, some of them really weren't bad. And it was there, that very early on. I photographed a picture called I think it was called All in the Family. And it had an eight year old Roddy McDowell, a 14 year old Glynis John's, and I suppose a 28 year old Jessica Tandy. And it was directed by Al Parker because al Parker was before he became an agent. Owl Parker had directed in America, Doug Fairbanks in the black pirate many years before. Everybody remembers a shop where Douglas Fairbanks senior slid down a sail with it with ease. And, and it was then also that James Mason arrived and was paid. I know he was paid 100 pounds for the film that he did. And that was the about the going price. I remember at the bar, a Scotch was six months because we used to have a Scotch in the evening when we finish there was a bar at Wembley, which is very pleasant. And I worked on a great many of these these credit quickies. And then

Roy Fowler  2:07:21  

when I asked about all Parker's Yeah, it was come up he had a reputation for being quite ferocious with with people.

Ronald Neame  2:07:28  

Oh, yes, he was he was a real tyrant. I liked him very much, actually. And he, he was he gave me he liked me too. And he was very, very loyal and very staunch to the people that worked around him and with him, that he was desperately temperamental. And he used to pick on people and once he decided to pick on someone, he would really give them hell. And in one particular case, he picked on his his, his his particular target for his, his bullying. He put picked on the script girl. And he really insulted her one day he called her stupid bitch or something like that. And only sparks or electricians came down off the rail and went into a huddle and said, Mr. Parker, we are not going to go on working on this film until you apologize to the script girl for the way you talk to. An owl had to apologize publicly to this girl. She hated doing that, because he really was awful to her. And he once told him an actor that he said, You stink. You're acting stinks. It stinks like a German acrobats. jockstrap, he said, very caring. And he was he was a real real but he was he was very efficient. And he was really rather good.

Roy Fowler  2:09:06  

Was he playing a part doing?

Ronald Neame  2:09:09  

I think his rage was was sort of calculated. Yes. Yes. He just he just felt. I mean, there are lots of directors that were like that, you know, there was it was Henry Hathaway much laters was a real bully. He used to talk about you tea drinking British bathtubs.

Roy Fowler  2:09:32  

But so many directors had the kind of style on the set, didn't they? Yeah, it was Bruce.

Ronald Neame  2:09:41  

Norris LVC was at Wembley also. And I worked on two or three pictures with Maurice. But then, suddenly there became allow in the amount of films that were made identity whether the My memory as to why it suddenly all dried up and stopped the quick is that they must have either dropped the law or realized it wasn't working properly. Because that

Roy Fowler  2:10:14  

came later didn't know but I think really there was a crisis in the industry because of the financial crashes quarter and Max sharp and so many others yes fingers in the pie.

Ronald Neame  2:10:27  

But it also for some reason or other Wembley dragged up

Roy Fowler  2:10:32  

was so many studios closed. Yeah, if we're talking of the late 30s I think it was 38. Yes, I

Ronald Neame  2:10:37  

guess we are talking about that. Now, I was fortunate because I didn't quite know how or why but I was asked to photograph at George Formby comedy at Ealing. And when they loaned me out to Ealing, and it was just it was a year before Michael Balcon went there, Basil Dean was still running the studio. And they were having quite a success with grassy fields. And, and George Formby. And I was asked whether I would photograph a job well, in fact, I was under contract to Wembley, but Wembley loaned me out to Ealing. And they charged 65 pounds a week for me. And they gave me half of their profit. So I had I was now really quite comfortably off and I bought an NG car I remember. And I photographed I would think it's think I photographed forgot what the first one was called. But we there was ice ice. It was troubled brewing. That was troubling the air, I think, but I forgot what the first one was. But I know it had key Welsh in it. And I had dinner with Kay Walsh last night, which is really interesting. Yes.

Roy Fowler  2:12:10  

Could it have been fairly honest? No. Yes. That

Ronald Neame  2:12:14  

was That was horrible. Yes. It was fairly honest. I think that was the one that was

Roy Fowler  2:12:18  

done for 1937 Yes. Um, it's gotten a little vague here in terms of your development, going from Elstee to to well indeed in terms of developing a personal style and you know, assuming semi well I suppose

Ronald Neame  2:12:39  

all the time, I was learning more about lighting and I and and, and was beginning to be regarded as as a as a cameraman that was it had some potential. Did

Roy Fowler  2:12:53  

you have mentors or exemplars Who were your favorite say in Hollywood that you were aware of or indeed here I suppose,

Ronald Neame  2:13:02  

I suppose Harry Stradling was the as he was working here, then Harry straddling and Leon sham Roy, remember and Charlie Rocha, who was a Mary Pickfords camera man. And, you know, one looked at all their pictures, but one developed one's own style.

Roy Fowler  2:13:29  

Now, how did you do that?

Ronald Neame  2:13:30  

I just I guess just from practice, going from one picture to another and gradually refining it, and I wasn't

Roy Fowler  2:13:38  

really conscious theorizing involved.

Ronald Neame  2:13:41  

So far as I was concerned, it was to emulate life. That is to say, if I had a set, I used to regard the set as a piece as a blank canvas, on which I was going to make a painting really. So so if you imagine that, that there here is a plain canvas. Now, let's say there was the wind there were windows on the left hand side. And so I would settle right now, the light source is others Windows obviously. So I would and I invariably made it sunshine, because it looked nicer. And so, I would come through the window with with Arc Light and general generally position the arc so that it hit perhaps say the fireplace wall. And you would you see if you this is too technical, really for this for this, but if you look at that wall there on your left, right where that job whether it does that. Now if you lose a job and a woman, yes, if you were to put a light from this side, it would hit This wall, it would put that bid into shadow, and then it would hit that back wall. So that would give a shape. So

Roy Fowler  2:15:07  

again, for the tape there, there is a right angle and a return and part of that would be a black vertical as well, yes,

Ronald Neame  2:15:14  

that's right. And that black vertical would get into shadow right. Now, if you were to put the light the other side, and you were to hit that wall from there, you would flatten out that vertical shadow, because the light would not only hit the wall, it would hit that vertical piece, and it would hit this wall. So it would then become flat. And of course, one wanted to avoid that one one wanted as much muddling as possible. But I would would come in through the windows as my main light source. Now then I would do everything with the light coming, not entirely from that direction, because you had to like the faces. But I would always try and keep the shadow side, the same side so that so what you were doing was you were imitating life you will be there's no better light than than the light that God gives us from the sun. But the nearer you got to that the better. And then you'd put a little backlight on to lift the characters to bring the characters away from the wall, running into the wall. Because remember, with no color are you feeling? Oh, I'm fine.

Roy Fowler  2:16:30  

Right, we'll run with a better backtrack on that you were saying? Yeah.

Ronald Neame  2:16:38  

Well, are you running? Yes, right. in those in those that time because everything was in black and white. In order to keep your car keep the photographer from looking flat, you had to make certain that you model that your lighting was modeled. Now, nowadays because of colour, this isn't a problem because the colour separation, if you've got, let's say you have a white wall, the clothes that the artists are wearing, maybe the colour of your shirt, which to say a yellowish beige, yellowish colour, and your your face, which is a pinkish color, they would stand away from a white wall, even if you put flat light on. So quite honestly, a camera man's job today is a much simpler job than it was in those days. And I very much doubt if many camera men today's cameraman could ever light in black and white? I don't think so. I think it would be too much of a problem.

Roy Fowler  2:17:46  

It's all art. It's all lost in all respects. Isn't that the the the lighting technique? And also the lab technique? Yes, yeah. So already in the third is you're sort of working towards a very contrast the picture Well,

Ronald Neame  2:18:02  

contrast perhaps is too strong a word, but certainly a very muddled type of lighting, I mean, light and shade, highlights and shadows. And one, apparently one light source. Or if it was night, and you had lights on the walls, then you would you would increase the you would put light on those wall brackets. And on that section of wall to create the illusion that the light was coming from the wall bracket. Or if there was a table lamp, you would you would light your actor from the direction of the table then suppose to the other side. But always bearing in mind that when women you had to make them look nice. And indeed in those days, the Hollywood cameraman particularly but even over here, you you hitched your wagon to stars. Because if if the leading lady if she had any name at all, if she said I would like to have run on him to photograph it, because I'd photographed a previous picture. Then that was a big help. So I was very conscious of making the women look as good as possible. And I worked on a whole lot of quota quickie summit Pinewood and that's where I first met Tony headlock Alan seranthony headlock Allen, who was producing quite a quickies at Pinewood for Paramount I think. And also, a Shepperton and Shepperton were making independent, mostly independent quoter QuicKutz, which were picked up by the studio, are you

Roy Fowler  2:19:47  

being loaned out or have you know,

Ronald Neame  2:19:50  

I was MPC Shepperton was at some point why is it I think Shepperton may have couldn't have come after Ealing it must have been before Ealing. I must have worked at Shepperton. At various times whilst I was still with Wembley, probably on a loan out basis. I can't absolutely remember. But I do know that one of those at Shepperton was supposed to cost 7000 pounds which was already much more than most of them were were costing. And the reason it was costing 7000 is festival it was longer than the normal 5000 foot. And also the producer had always from the very beginning very grand ideas. Producer, Producer Director. Producer was Gabby Pascoe,

Roy Fowler  2:20:54  

well, we must talk about Gabby your first Gabby's recollections of Gabby,

Ronald Neame  2:21:00  

well, that my first recollections with Gabby were on this this on this quote a quickie made at Shepperton. I can't even remember who was in it. But I know it finished, finished up costing about 13,000 pounds as opposed to the seven in the budget. He was always a flamboyant character. He said you are a genius. To me. You are a genius cameraman and always you will make pictures with me etc, etc. And he used to get temperamental. And he was he was always being temperamental about something and threatening to go back to Hungary. I think he came from

Roy Fowler  2:21:44  

Transylvania.

Ronald Neame  2:21:47  

However he was it was very enjoyable working with him. And we just made this one picture. And everybody said, well, Gabby will never be allowed to make another picture because he went way over budget. But that was where I first met him and where I liked him and he liked me. But then there was a big gap when I never saw him. And, indeed, during the time that I never saw him which is whilst I was Ealing, which when Michael Bolcom suddenly arrived, had a company called cap pad ca P A d i don't know what the initial stood

Roy Fowler  2:22:29  

for. It had something to do with Cooperative. It was an association of distributors and producers during that slump

Ronald Neame  2:22:38  

That's right. And of course when

Roy Fowler  2:22:40  

we're getting a noise of the cup, oh, don't don't worry about it. Just a slight one.

Ronald Neame  2:22:49  

But but so I met Gabby, we we did this one picture together. He thought I was excellent. And that was that. Now, I went back to Ealing. And I made a lot of pictures of dealing with the for just men with Jack Hawkins saloon bar with Gordon Harker. And they will deform the pictures. But one of the form be pictures with Oh, yes, one of them was but one of them was K wash. One of them was the girls names I can't remember it's terrible. And Antony kibin has directed them 20 Kenyans. And during that time, Gabby went to see Bernard Shaw at a at St. Lawrence. He had no money. How he got into seashore nobody ever knows. He literally went camping hand to Bernard Shaw and said, I should make all your plays into films. And Bernard Shaw was intrigued by this man, and literally gave him for an undisclosed price. Because Gabby had no money, a price that would be discussed later. He gave him the rights the screenplay rights of all his place, free and gratis. And Gabby Of course, immediately decided to make Pygmalion with Leslie hard. And but during that time, I was at Ealing. And I didn't see Gabby again. Now I worked at Ealing for several years. And Kodak brought out a new film. I think it was called plus two, something like that. And he was supposed to be very, very fast. And I decided I would use this new film and I ran into tears. I will trouble on it. Because although it was very fast, the shadows were very empty. So that if you had lit a dark piece of furniture, the furniture would go black. Anything dark went very, very dark. So it was sort of what I call sit and whitewash. There were no half tones. And I remember saying to the label, Now, wait a minute, am I? Am I using too little light? And they said, no, no, there's plenty of exposure. It's just the shadows that are empty. And so I remember filling the shadows. But still, the result was was lousy. And I started to get into a real panic. What I didn't realize was, and I don't think Kodak did, or the laboratories was that the film wasn't, it was fast, but it in order to get a fully exposed negative with all the shadows and filled in, you needed to use just as much light as we'd used on the previous stock. And, but I didn't know that. And as I as the whitewash part I used, I would reduce the highlight and increase the shadow. And I, I literally, just, I couldn't do it. I mean, I was lost, really lost so. And I thought, well, something's happened, I've lost my touch. And I went to Mickey bulk and who was a very, very good, good friend and for whom I photographed many pictures. And I said, Look, Mickey, I know that the photography is lousy, and I run into some kind of trouble that I cannot get out of. And I would be grateful if you would put somebody else on and he have a few weeks leave because I'm not doing the film any good. And I'm not doing myself any good. And he was very, very nice. And he said, Okay, Ronnie, go away for a few weeks, we put somebody else on the picture. And I really thought My God My career is coming to an end because if I can't master a new stock, you know what's going to happen to me. And I remember going on, on a sort of holiday with with my wife and I thought I've learned to play golf to take my mind away from all the disaster that had happened to me. And then one day I received a telephone call. Did I at that time have an agent? Let me think. I think I had just gone to Christopher man limited. Yes. And I had a call for the agent that would I photograph a test that was being made at denim studios of Wendy Hiller who is going to play major Barbara. For Gabby Pascoe, Gabby Pascall was on location with Freddy young, photographing it. And David Lean, who was the editor on the picture, and co director was going to direct this test. And wood I photographed this test. And I jumped at the chance because I thought, right, I've had two or three weeks rest. Use the old stock, I won't use the new stock, and I'll see if I have lost my touch or not. And I photographed this test to Wendy Hiller and met David for the first time. That said, David and I met, and that must have been 1940, I would think, and I by now, I was really rather good at photographing women. I photographed Phyllis CalVet, pet rock, Margaret Lockwood, all that group of, of contract stars, which is the only star system we ever had in this country, which was Ted Black, who really put them together at Shepherds Bush. And I found out that the only way that Wendy could look really good was if she had a highlight. A soft dish highlight that went straight into her face, putting her nose shadow just halfway down her lip and putting the side of her face that was close is to camera, putting that slightly into shadow to give her a nice looking oval. Now that was fine when she was looking in the direction where I had this light. But of course, she had to turn and look the other side of the camera. And I invented what I called a windy light. And it was a little light that I could hold in my hand. And I would hold the light about two feet away just out of picture. And when Wendy turned her head, I would move the light round, so that it went with her face. Nobody could ever see that that was happening. It didn't show that there was lack of moving. But it did mean that as she looked from one side of the camera to the other, the light moved so that it still remained in exactly the right place to make her look good. And I made her look very good indeed. And David Lean was very impressed. He thought this is this young man really knows what he's doing. Harry Stradling had gone back to America because when the war broke out, they all the American cameramen all went back home. And for the first time, British camera men were given the opportunity of photographing big pictures. Up to now, the Americans were always brought over for the important pictures. The bridge camera man myself, then Brian Langley and people like that. We photographed the cheap small pictures. Now, what happened? I'm not quite sure, but Freddie young and Gabby Pascall had a falling out. I never knew much about that, because I didn't see Freddie. And I didn't see Gabby at that time. But they were on location down in Cornwall or somewhere like that. And David was put in charge of directing the factory sequences where they're making steel with molten metal, you know, molten steel foundry, the foundry. And David was was going to direct this and David said, Would I like to photograph it? And I said brother I would be that would be great fun. Now I was still as it were on leave from from Ealing.

Ronald Neame  2:32:41  

But nevertheless, you know, I don't know I don't think I even mentioned I was doing this to make it bulk. And it didn't it wasn't important at that time. But to David and I went to Newcastle and we did the the sequences in the foundry and we also did quite a bit of of work up there. And David apparently was in the doghouse with Gabby at this time to Gabby had had problems with David. However, we came back to London and suddenly out of the blue. Again, I think through Christopher man, I was asked Gabby passworded asked if I would like to photograph the whole film. And I said, Well, what about Freddy young? And I was terrible Friday doesn't want to do it anymore. Had

Roy Fowler  2:33:32  

the main unit been shooting been shooting

Ronald Neame  2:33:34  

down in Como? Because I don't know how long because I you know, so I thought well, why not? And Christopher man said and Ronnie Gabby will pay you 80 pounds a week, which was a colossal Saturday at that time for a British cameraman. And I said well if I can if Mickey broke and will release me from England Of course it would be wonderful. So I got on to make it Balkan who, while releasing me because he said I didn't want to stand in your way, Ronnie. But I have to tell you that Mr. Pascoe is ruining the industry by paying these ridiculous salaries. And I think Mickey actually got on to gave your passcode and reprimanded him for offering his cameraman this kind of money. But at the same time, Mickey was a nice man and he didn't want to prevent me from you know, the opportunity. And so learn Behold, I found myself photographing the most important picture being made in the country at that time. Because it's cast part from Wendy Hiller. It had people like Robert Newton, it had Robert Morley, it had Damian Williams died. And they're very young. You're very young Deborah Carr. And, you know, it was an all star cast. And it was a wonderful opportunity for me. And I then met John Bryan, who was at the beginning Assistant art director to code his brother Vincent. But Vincent moved away from the picture, having done a lot of the designs, and John Bryan became the main set designer, which was the beginning of a very, very important relationship because John Bryan and I eventually became partners. And many years later, we made the horse's mouth together, and we made the card with Alec Guinness. And we made the magic box and with Bob Donette, and a whole lot of films together. So that was an important meeting. Also, obviously, a very, very important meeting with David Lean. And David and I became very, very close friends. Wives knew each other. We were friends quite apart from the filmmaking end. And we had a splendid two weeks of shooting. But over a period of two weeks shooting, Gabby ran behind schedule by at least eight days. And the man financing the film was John and Jimmy Will's father, Wolf CSCs. CMO of cm Well, he was really the responsible for the finance was not rank, not ranked. No, it wasn't, it wasn't a rank film. That rank hadn't really got into his stride. And I think Frank may have been making his religious films, but he couldn't. He could sell his religious films and that's why he eventually bought Odeon and Gaumont because that was the only way he could get his religious films shown. But rank wasn't on the scene not in not as early as it's not in 40, as I remember. And but at the end of two weeks, as I say Gabby was miles behind. And Gabby said to Sam Wolf, well, I have a very young cameraman. He's a good cameraman, but he is very, very slow. And the reason that I am behind schedule is because I had this very slow camera. And CM will said then change your camera man. And Gabby reluctantly said, Well, if that's what you feel I should do, and I was sent for that evening. By Gabby, and it was a physical PC Samuels.

Roy Fowler  2:38:14  

Yes, Phil Simmons, Phil Samuels

Ronald Neame  2:38:17  

and gave us an I'm very sorry, Ronnie but but CM will feels we're going to slowly and you know, we may have to make a change. And I said no, look at me. This is very unfair and very unkind. I may not be a good cameraman. But I am not a slow cameraman. Because I've worked on codec quickies. I've made films in seven days. And I know that I'm not slow. accuse me of anything else, but not slowness. And I must say, PC Samuels was very, very warm and nice. And he said, Ronnie, why don't you have a chat with cm wolf yourself and explain the situation to him? And I said, Okay, I'll go and see Mr. Wolf. At the same time, as I was seeing Mr. Wolf, PC Samuels, and David Lean, and the whole unit, had a meeting and went together Pascall and said if you fire on our name, we are going to which is a wonderful piece of loyalty, which you seldom get in business. I went to see a wolf and I said Look, Mr. Wolf, I I know I'm not an experienced cameraman on big pictures. But really and truly I am not slow. And if we're behind schedule, which we are. It is. It is I promise you it is Gabby that's putting us behind. And if you want confirmation that way that you talk to David Lean, who is CO directing it with her little French. And Sam wolf said alright, I said, I will talk to Gabby and and or I go back to work tomorrow morning. And let's see what happens. Well, from that moment on, we had no trouble at all. We went further and further and further behind. Mostly because of Gabby, who really matters. I admired him as a packager. And as an impresario he wasn't a director. And of course, David really did the was really the director, Harold French, worked a little bit on was sort of a dialogue director really, and, and we made the film and they were we had we had it, it had its problems. But by and large, it was a successful film. Bob Newton was just beginning to be troublesome because he was getting beginning to get drunk every day. We, Bob Newton and and Donald Calthrop, who was in it used to drive around on Bob Newton's motorbike at night from one pub to another in Elstree. And one day, just towards the end of the picture, Donald Calthrop drop dead. I remember that. And we had to have a double for Donald for lots of scenes that he hadn't done. I never knew that. Yes. And I and it was, it was a wonderful picture really for me. Can

Roy Fowler  2:41:37  

we just clear up? How the film was made? You say the David Lean was in effect, the director working with Pascal, actually on the set? Yes, he

Ronald Neame  2:41:47  

Oh, yes, he will give you the shot, or you will discuss David was certainly responsible with me for all because by then I was very, I was pretty experienced as a cameraman. And in those days, I was able to help David quite a lot on on the camera side, on the set outside. And so, in fact, David probably would never admit it, because David was, you know, fairly egotistical. But I did help David a great deal at that time. And that's why David always wanted me to be a catenis cameraman. But David was only co director and editor.

Roy Fowler  2:42:25  

What was it done discreetly, I knew what was going to be doing

Ronald Neame  2:42:29  

during Gabby. Gabby would stand by the camera, how French would stand a little further back? David would stand by the camera. And we would say let's say there was a big crowd scene of some kind. And David would say action. And Gabby would watch and then suddenly in the middle of the take, Gabby would say no, no, no, no, no, no. And David would say, cat, what's the matter Gabby? That lady in the background on the right there. She is not paying attention. She she is not doing the scene properly. She is spoiling my film. And David would say or I would say Gabby, she isn't in the picture. I do not care whether she is in the picture or not. She must act like everybody else. And we had that kind of interference. Then we had a very very funny situation that remained with me while my life by the way, you have to remember that we're now into the war. The the war had been going for quite a while now. And a great deal was murdered Barbara so yes. And and of course, we got further and further and further behind schedule, because of the continuous interference with air raid sirens and and all of this, because every time it was an air raid siren and we had to go down into the shelters. And so the amount of work we were getting out of each day was was minimal. But one particular thing that I remember because it was really very funny. Gabby had decided that under shaft the head of the of this enormous conglomerate should smoke big cigars. He was a cigar smoker said Gabby. And Gabby brought his own cigars down from London. And they were great big Romeo and Juliet or whatever, Cuban cigars about this. And Bob Marley did not smoke. He was a nonsmoker. But Gabby said Robert, you now with these guys, you see you love these cigars, these cigars to you. Life itself and I want you to show that love when you take If the cigar out and you take off the the label and you you prick the end with your cigar clipper and the way you light it and you twist it around in your mouth and you we know that you love this cigar. So we start to shoot the first take and we just Robert just about gets the cigar out of the box and holds it up to get the thing to cut it when Gabby says non caught. That is no good. David says What's wrong Gabby? Robert Molly is not that is not the way you take this guy out of the box. Gabby says Robert, I thought you told me to do non non non we go again. I will explain it that then explains again to Robert how he wants it done. Now we do another take. And again no caught caught caught Robert. Mr. Morley, that is not the way you clip the cigar. But Gabi dia says, Robert, I, I don't know what you want me to do. I'm doing everything you do. No, no, no, no, you're not. This goes on for about 15 texts. And in the end, Gabe, he says turns to David and says, I can no longer talk with this man. Please from now on through the film. I will not talk with him. I will talk with you. And you must tell him because he cannot speak with this man. Now of course, every time we do a set up, and Robert Molly does something displeases get killed Mr. Murali that he should do this. And the other. I mean, it was it was quite ridiculous, and quite chaotic, and very funny. And then came the situation again, that we were getting too far behind that something had to be done. So it was decided that we would put spotters on the roof of denim studios to watch out for German aircraft. And they would be surrounded by sandbags. And they would be like in the trenches, but they'd be on the roof of the studio. They would have binoculars. And of course they they get here because you could tell the sound of a German play. Because they put their engines out of sync. Yes, to insert it. And they blame

Roy Fowler  2:47:35  

frequency thudding

Ronald Neame  2:47:37  

That's what I used to go well, Mum Mum, one one. So you could always tell a German playing. So the idea was this. When the sirens went, we obviously lost that tape because the sirens would ruin the tape. But we would not go to the shelter. We would wait and the moment the siren would finished, we would go and shooting. And the spotters on the roof would keep their ears open and their eyes open for any sign of German aircraft. And from the roof, there was a lead that ran down to a big fire bell on the wall of the stage that we were working in. And the idea was that we would take no notice of the sirens. But if this bell went, it meant the spotters on the roof had spotted a plane and we had to take cover. When everybody thought this was a good idea except to the electricians around the rail, who said well, it's all very well for you lock down on the floor there. But what about us, but the time we get down the bundle of drops. So a plan was devised whereby every electrician was given a rope which he could throw over. And he would land down on the floor and he could then slide down the rope and take cover with the rest of us. And the electorate has all agreed that this was fair, they could slide down a rope if they had to pretty quickly. Well, for two weeks, I think there was the bell did not go there was air raid sirens and so on. But we went on and we we really started to do very well and Gabby was being more reasonable and David was being was more in charge. And we were doing the factory sequence the undershot factory and I remember we were in a shot that took in the whole stage of all the complex will of the buildings and exterior but it was in the studio. And right in the foreground. It was Rex Harrison and Wendy Hiller in a very close and very intimate dialogue scene. And we were on about the third or the fourth take. When suddenly in the middle of the take Banga, manga, manga, manga, manga, manga, manga mangoes this bell that has never run. Well, there was an immediate panic. The camera crew were the first to go. We did not turn off the camera. Rex looked around in astonishment, and rope start dropped into the top of the frame. All of this we saw on the next day on rushes ropes dropped in the top of the frame. I remember one particular electrician it was a real fatto burger. And he sit down there, they all slid down the road, they all ran, people ran across the set from one side to the other towards the exit and the shelters. And one of the first run was reps. And when they stood there, in utter astonishment, because when they had not been on call when the bell was discussed, and didn't even know that the bell existed. So finally, on the rushes the next day, there was an empty set, except for Wendy, who is standing there, utterly unaware of, of why. And I've always pulled Rex Harrison's leg ever since that whenever I saw Rex, I would say women and children first a rex, and he always knew what I meant. Because of the way and of course, all the way through major Barbara, we did have the problem of of the war, getting in our way. And we all became far watches, studio and all of that. But the picture finished.

Roy Fowler  2:51:53  

Do you remember how long it took to shoot, it went on for,

Ronald Neame  2:51:56  

I suppose about 12 weeks, maybe 14 as little as it was, it might have been longer. i It seemed a lifetime. But finally we finished. And the last thing was Shawn coming to the studio where he did a prologue for us. And he signed his name. And I'm always remember that I thought how stupid I was. We photographed him doing his signature. And he was very particular. And if we did at least 10 signature signatures before he was happy with it. And each time he did those things to the property manager take a sheet of paper and throw it on the floor. I could have had at least 12 genuine signatures of Bernard Shaw, but never thought about. Well then came the day when Shaw was going to see the finished film. And I remember that get there was Gabby, there was David, there was myself. There was the Well, David was really the editor but there were there was the cutting room staff. And that was about it. I think maybe maybe John Bryan was there, I don't know. But there were about 10 of us was sure sitting in the middle. And the lights went out. And we ran the film. And at the end, the lights went on. And sure set in utter silence for about what seems an eternity but was probably only about half a minute. Everybody else was sad and waiting on the big man's opinion. After about 30 seconds he got up and he turned around and he faced Gabby. And he said Gabby, you astonish me. And he left the theater. And nobody ever knew what he thought about the film because that's all he ever said. Well, of course, that united David and I into a kind of partnership, because he we we liked each other very much and we worked very, very well together. But David was still an editor I went on. I was asked by 20th Century Fox to go and photograph the aerial sequences, the wartime burial sequences of a film that Darryl Zanuck was making in Hollywood called a Yank in the RAF. And I went to Prestwick, and I had a Hudson Hudson bomber, and I was in charge of a dozen Spitfires. I had a squadron of Spitfires at my disposal, except that when they Whether was a flap of course they took off to fight the war. But when there was nothing doing they were my Spitfires. And the there was a big problem because Darryl Zanuck wanted a whole sequence of shots of Spitfires flying in formation. Well, of course, fighters never flew in formation. The whole point of the fighter in those days was that they were all placed various corners of the, of the airfield camouflage. And when there was a flat, they just took off in any direction. And the thing was not to fly in formation not to be a target. You had to fly on your by yourself as far away from everybody else as possible. But no, no, no, much as I explained this to Darryl Zanuck. That wasn't what he wanted. He wanted fighters information. So I had to teach the RAF, how to fly information. And I did it with a walkie talkie to the planes because that was very primitive. You had the camera off they had the door off the camera you were directing the sequences Yes, was the was the was a director called herb. Herb nice. But her didn't like flying. He didn't come up. So I was the director as well as the cameraman. And so through the walkie talkie, I would say number three up a little apple little number three. Number five, I like to write a little and I get these characters into formation. And if we went in the Hudson bomber flat out so that the wings were almost falling off, and the Spitfires held their sticks back so they were almost dropping out of the sky we could keep level with. And we did an enormous amount of work over a period of two or three weeks. And then I had to leave the production to join Mickey power. Who was going to direct with Emerick Pressburger, one of our aircraft is missing. And I had already signed up to make that picture to photograph that picture. Which by the way, David was editor on and so I told Fox and Fox it Okay, Otto Canterbury who is a camera man. Good well in camera man is has just arrived back from America. Otto and his crew will come up and take over because I wanted my crew back on one of our aircraft is missing. I think Jack Hilliard was with me up there. And one or two people whose names I've sort of forgotten. But anyway, we left and I handed over to Otto. And the first shot that they had to do the next day was a V formation of fighters that had to fly past the camera plane. And they went up the next day to do this shot. And what happened was that the lead plane of this V formation, the leading Spitfire misjudged his distance away from the camera plane. And so he flew by with the with the rest of the planes forming the V. And they were all watching the wingtips in front of them, so as to keep in the V formation, as a result of which the last Spitfire on the nearest side to the camera was too close to the camera and cut the tail off of the Hudson bomber. And Hudson bomber went straight into the ground and killed the entire crew. And the the Spitfire pilot bailed out. And he was alright. But I missed that by one day. Because it would have been my crew and me wet. And so after that day, I always believe that whatever you when you're due to go, that's when you go.

Roy Fowler  2:59:26  

But also stay away from aerial photography.

Ronald Neame  2:59:33  

I want just didn't have any fear because, and that's why so many cameramen were killed during the war. The casualty rate of cameramen in the Army or the Navy or the Air Force. were higher than anybody else. Because you you forgot you had your camera. Yes, you see. Yes. And I remember having these pitfalls. Some of the shots they had to dive at the camera pain and peel off you'll know and they would dive at me it's 350 miles and add that camera play and peel off and I remember seeing coming closer before you peel off coming closer before you peel off and quite honestly you know it was madness because it only had to they only had to miss judge by a few feet native just knocked us out of the sky.

Roy Fowler  3:00:20  

Well statistically, I think that any cameraman who specialized in hardware stuff eventually helicopters with or have averages. I remember fairly young a couple of years ago, he said somebody called him for three days work the following week, one of which was in an in a helicopter when he wanted no part of the way it seems to me rightly or wrongly that we've missed out a bit about Ealing. Have we not? Have we glossed over that? Do you

Ronald Neame  3:00:51  

think I know that we've really glossed over it? Perhaps we have. It was such a it was an easy going Yes, three or four years. I have a long hours there. It was efficiently run by Mickey Balcon. Who made not great pictures. But but good run of the mill Phil kind of potboilers. Yeah. And, you know, we just went from we seem to go from picture to picture I met Walter Ford, who was a very nice man and a director. And Walter had been a comic. He had been there many, many years before. And he directed several of the pictures. And his wife, Kelly Ford, who was always on the set with him and everybody. They routinely were a team and Kelly was very, very important.

End of Side 1

Ronald Neame Part 2

Roy Fowler  0:00  

As I said a moment ago, with microphones turned off before we embark on the 40s. And what happened after that one last glance at Ealing as he left it, and Michael Balcon was already then a considerable figure in the British film industry.

Ronald Neame  0:15  

Oh, yes. When Mickey first moved in, moved in and took over really virtually from Basil Dean,  Ealing became more and more successful. And I mean, the Ealing trademark. One of them

Roy Fowler  0:30  

Let's start again about Michael. Yeah.

Ronald Neame  0:37  

Right. Well, Mickey Balcon. Of course, he was there for most of the time that I was at Ealing, he took over sort of from Basil Dean, and was without any doubt, a great, great champion of, of the British films of the period. And we all know how successful he was. The negative side, I think, a little bit was that he would not think internationally, he was determined to have the British flag waving on every film, and

Roy Fowler  1:17  

 Sorry to interrupt , yes, but he had tried that at Gaumont British hadn't he and it hadn't worked. So maybe this was a reaction,

Ronald Neame  1:23  

iIt could well be a reaction. That's true. And I'm not sure also how much I think would have been quite wrong for us to, to try to copy Hollywood or ape Hollywood. In any way. I think that the fact that we we had a special kind of film, which was, I suppose, especially British was, was fine. And I'm very proud of all those films that I worked on. But I think that Mick was just a little bit too colloquial, you know, I think that he could have kept one eye on on the overseas market. And I do think that's a little bit of a failing that we have, we tend to not say, Well, why should we pander to or cater to the big American audience, we must make our own films with integrity in our own way. And although I agree with that, I think that it can be overdone. And I've always felt that we should have a little more awareness of the potential big market that there is in the rest of the world. We I think, as a nation, we tend to say British is best and, and tend a little bit too, not to want to alter our sights in any way.

Roy Fowler  2:53  

Well, being devil's advocate, I think there's equally and others to that, which is first of all, the Americans are determined to keep it all their's it seems to me they're very ungracious about even sharing things very difficult to break into the American market. And the other is that Ealing in that particular case was very what was slenderly financed was

Ronald Neame  3:16  

yes, it was indeed. It was, indeed, it's a it's a big, I think it's a it's just still connected. Right.

Ronald Neame  3:26  

I think the whole thing of whether or not we should try to enter the American market is such a big item that I think it's something for, perhaps an entirely different discussion at some time or other. But, you know, what I find a little bit sad is that so many of the great big pictures of the world made, or were made and have been made in England, but have been made with American Finance, and therefore ultimately, became American films earning big money for American companies. And that said, in a way, I mean, you take all the bond pictures, for example. I don't know where the money from the bond pictures goes. Where does it go?

Roy Fowler  4:19  

You look at the credit titles, and it's done. Jaquez say so I would think Switzerland.

Ronald Neame  4:28  

But anyway, I think America they, they don't push the typical British film. Not entirely. Selfishly, they just don't believe that the average British football will, will do well in a mass market over there. And you know, they have a pint, I'm afraid But anyway, going back to to meet Volker and he certainly was a great champion of young British filmmakers. The only thing the only thing that I would have negatively hold against him negatively is that he did tend to take the greater part of the credit for all the E, Ealing pictures. They were all Michael Balcon films, whether they were directed by Charlie friend or Charlie Crighton, or whoever else. And there is no doubt that when he was finally driven out of business, by John Davis and CO really, he just shut down and all these young directors were suddenly found themselves out in the big world. Having been under the protection of Michael Balcon, they found themselves out in the big world as unknown entities. And particularly, for example, Charlie friend had a terrible job surviving. And so did quite a few of them from Ealing. And I think it said, because there was a great deal of wonderful talent that came from there. And I'm I moved away earlier. You see, I moved away long before I became either a producer or a director. And indeed, before I even became a senior cameraman, but I don't think there's really much more for me to say about Ealing. Although I think there's a lot more to be said about Ealing. 

Roy Fowler  6:38  

I'm curious about that last statement. You did not consider yourself a senior cameraman still, I know that in terms of years, you're still quite young.

Ronald Neame  6:44  

I was young in terms of years, but also I I had not worked on a big budget picture. Major Barbara was the first big picture that I worked on realy

Roy Fowler  7:00  

was Ealing proceed also to be somewhat outside the mainstream was fortunately it

Ronald Neame  7:05  

 it was perceived to be a very efficient production company making very very typical British pictures very much for the home market and not for the international market. I mean, good is as the subjects were things like passport to Pimlico, I suppose you could name as typical things like the back before Jasmine like saloon bar, I'm thinking of one or two I worked on and I think certainly the form the pictures, they were all very, very British British. And whereas for example, Pygmalion became an international picture, which which was Gabby's first one, and Major Barbra wasn't as successful as Pygmalion but nevertheless was an international picture and later which we're coming up to very shortly in which we serve was although it didn't have an enormous release in America it nevertheless it was a big scale production

Roy Fowler  8:18  

Before we leave the 30s  that's the point you wanted to tidy up about Pygmalion because you are credited in some sources. Yes, he worked on 

Ronald Neame  8:27  

I've never understood somebody way way back. When mentioning Major Barbara must have said run on him also photograph Pygmalion and it's one of those weird things it got picked up. And whenever my biography appears anywhere, lo and behold, Pygmalion appears, except that whenever I get an anything sent to me or the list of pictures I made, I always cross out. But it keeps coming back. perpetuating. Yes, it's very funny. Right, but no connection, no connection.

Roy Fowler  9:06  

Um, well, unless there's something in your mind about the 30s. We'll take the 30s as

Ronald Neame  9:11  

Well. Let me see was, yes, there's no I guess there's nothing else in the 30s. Really? Because major Barbara brings us up to the beginning of the war, the first two years of the war, doesn't it?

Roy Fowler  9:26  

Yes. Well, it went into production in what 39 or 40? Yes. And

Ronald Neame  9:32  

it was through by by the end of 40. I think. Then, as I say they came, which we've discussed fairly fully. The Darryl Zanuck picture in which the camera crew was killed, in which Arthur  Kendrick  and his his whole crew were killed. And that brings us to "One of our Aircraft is Missing"

Roy Fowler 1  9:57  

right. Now. You mentioned earlier that Mickey Powell was a  still man at Elstree  

Ronald Neame  10:06  

Yes, I met Mickey, a film called Adam's Apple. That I was an assistant camera man on that. Tim Whelan directed and Monty Banks, who was a comic was the star in and Michael Powell was the still man having worked for Rex Ingram in France up till then. But in the meantime, Mick had  become a director with his partner Emeric Pressburger. And I don't quite know why he asked for me, but he asked for me, as the cameraman. And David as editor.

Roy Fowler  10:46  

We know David had recut "49th Parallel" had he not? 

Ronald Neame  10:49  

That is probably the reason Yes, I would think for sure. And so David, and I finally found ourselves working together again, having only worked up till then on Major Barbara.  "One of our aircraft is missing" , went through without any big problems. It was quite a nice picture. I learned, I suppose, on that picture, a great deal more about editing than I'd ever known before. Because when the picture of when, when we'd finished shooting the picture, I'd been advised now become a close personal friend of David's. And I used to go into the cutting room a great deal. And, you know, David Lean was a wonderful director. But he was an even more wonderful editor. He was one of the great editors of all time, in my opinion, What he could do with that Moviola  was was magical. And later on, when I directed my first picture, that I directed - "Take My Life" I know that David helped me in the editing and David made a big difference to that picture, because of his great talent in the cutting room. But there was there was "One of our Aircraft is Missing", there were no particular dramas to report I learned a great deal about day for night photography, because a lot of of the stuff was was nighttime, which we had to shoot in the daytime. And I learned about cutting out neutral density filters due to the shape of the top of buildings and things to get that sky down to a real night sky. And I suppose I learned a lot about how to make day look like night. That was probably the thing I remember most

Roy Fowler  12:56  

There was a lot of  exterior photography on the film was it in and around the studio.

Ronald Neame  13:03  

We went to Suffolk or Norfolk, somewhere on the coast, east coast, where it was very flat because it was supposed to be Holland. And indeed, there was quite a lot of you know, there must have been a lot of intermarriage between beep were between sailors, I suppose from Holland, and the people from that part of the country because the even the architecture has created a feeling of the Netherlands. And there was a big long location period. But nothing very special to report except the extension of the friendship with David, which of course, was tremendously important to my whole career. Because what happened then, was that this fellow Del Giudice  emerged Filippo Del Giudice who was an Italian and who was interred interned, is that the right word at the beginning of the war. And yes, and who, I didn't quite know how he came to be a film producer, because I didn't know anything about him before. He decided he wanted he managed to get himself free from the camp, I think on the basis that he wanted to make a film about the British war effort.

Roy Fowler  14:38  

I think he'd been before the war in the business. He was a lawyer. He was Toplas's  partner. Oh,

Ronald Neame  14:44  

Oh that's right. That's right. Anyway, the Two Cities

Roy Fowler  14:48  

The Two Cities originally were Rome and London.

Ronald Neame  14:53  

Well, that's interesting. You knew more about it than that

Roy Fowler  14:56  

He was  a somewhat enigmatic character. 

Ronald Neame  14:58  

But anyway,he decided that he wanted to make a film about the British war effort, and for some reason or other went to sought out and managed to meet Noel Coward. And I have a feeling that Tony Havelock-Allan, Anthony Havelock-Allan made the introduction, but I'm not absolutely certain about that. But certainly, Tony had been a producer of quota quickies. And I'd worked for Tony with Tony Havelock. And certainly Tony Havlock was  around right at the beginning, when early discussions took place, with Del Giudice  and Noel and Dell wanted the great Noel Coward to make a film about the British war effort. And at first Noel wasn't all that interested. But then, after a long long chat with his friend, Lord Louie Mountbatten, and the whole story of Mountbatten's destroyer the Kelly, and how it was sunk in the Mediterranean and how they all survived or most of them survived by clinging to Carley floats and rafts and things now suddenly thought, my goodness, this could make a good film. He knew nothing about filmmaking. He'd acted in one or two films, I think, primarily in America. But he had never had anything to do with the making of a film. And however, after these long sessions with his good friend, he decided, and so did Lord Louie decided that it would be a very good idea to make a film about the Kelly, about this destroyer. So Noel sought out Filippo Del Giudice  and said, Okay, I'm gonna make a film for you. But I, I want to make it my way with the people that I choose to make it with. And Filippo said, Mr. Coward, whatever you want, you shall have and I will be behind you. And I will see that you get all the money you need and everything else that you need. And no, I said, Well, the first thing I want to do is to choose the people that I want with me. And he made it his business to see a lot of films, British films. And amongst them was, of course major Barbara, and he spotted the photography on Major Barbara, and they liked it very much. And he was very impressed with the editing. And so he said to Tony Havelock Allen, who he knew personally, he said, I'd like David Lean and Ronald Neame. And I would like you  Tony Havelock-Allan as an executive. And that is my little group that I would like to have around me. With which Noel, sat down to write a screenplay. And one day, several weeks later, David and Tony and I were asked to go to Jarrell Road, where now had his home and his studio to spend the evening with the the master as he was called, whilst he the master read to us, the screenplay that he wanted to turn into a film without help. And we went along and this was the first time I met Noel, it was almost too cliche to be because he was dressed in a dressing gown. And he had a cigarette and a holder and everything that you would imagine our car to have. He was very courteous, very warm and very friendly. There was a studio was lovely. It was a raised there was a big raised sort of part, which was almost like a stage on which there were to grand pianos. And it was a lovely big roaring fire, remember, and we were offered nice, large drinks. And he then sat us down in comfortable chairs and said, I will now read you my story. Well, he must have gone on reading for between three and four hours. And we were all three of us. Exhausted by the time he had finished. There is no doubt that it was some of it was lovely stuff. He was very, very good at characterisation, and there were lots of very, very good characters in it. From the captain of the district. are down through the various offices to the the ordinary seaman. And it was a mammoth work. However, as we quickly explained to him know, this, if this was film was shot in the way you would written it, it would take eight hours to screen. Because it does everything and it goes everywhere. And now said very bitingly, but I thought that was the whole point about film was that you could do anything and go everywhere. And when you said yes, but within the limitation of two, or there abouts timeframe. And we said, there's some wonderful stuff in it, but But it's got to be cut down to size. He said very well. That's that's exactly what what I think that you should do with it. Now, he said, I suggest that this film is written, produced and directed by Noel Coward, David Lean, and Ronald Neame. And Tony can be will be the executive producer. And David said, Well, no, you know, I'm sorry. That's, I mean, I now I'm going to be a director. I've earned my colours. And I don't want to do a film unless I am the director. And now said, Well, of course, I am the director, or will be the director. And Ronnie I said, Well, me, I'm the cameraman. And that's my my credit. That's I'm very happy with that, because I don't want to be anything else. Anyway, after a lot of argument, it was agreed that Noel Coward and David would share directing credit and that I would just be which indeed, I should have been the cameraman.

Roy Fowler  21:55  

Do you not share a title card with? A Did you have a single credit or not share a title?

Ronald Neame  22:05  

I didn't remember recently. Yeah.

Roy Fowler  22:09  

They give what for the time this was the cameraman increased importance, I think, were they? I

Ronald Neame  22:16  

think I got a full credit a full screen credit. If I didn't, I certainly got a half a screen credit. But I know that I got a bigger credit than then normally it can't really get. And I was in all the paid advertising to. I mean, which is surprising. Of course, none of just Yes. Say this

Roy Fowler 1  22:35  

about what you just said, which is that we're credits of that importance in those times. I mean, subsequently,

Ronald Neame  22:43  

I never felt that credits were all that important. But I think I was very, very wrong. I've been very foolish to myself in terms of credit, because I always share in the writing of the screenplay always. And I was always in a position where I could have quite rightly claimed, co screenplay credit. And indeed, I have two Academy Award nominations, for screenplay, one being great expectations and the other being brief encounter. But at this particular time for me, just to have the camera man's credit was all that I needed. Now, I have to jump back a little bit here. Because at the time of major Barbara, Christopher man was my agent. And but Chris, man, quite frankly, did not. I did not feel that I needed an agent. I didn't feel that cameraman needed an agent that if a producer wanted a cameraman, he would say, Well, I like I was the Morris or I like whoever it may be, and that an agent was redundant and unimportant. And I had this three year contract with Christopher man, which was on the point of running out just the end of major Barbara. And I found out Chris man into Major Barbara and said, Chris, I think you're a good agent, but I don't think as a cameraman, I need an agent. And therefore I would like to end my contract with you. And Kristen McMahon said, Okay, that's fine. Ronnie, why should you you, you know you if you don't want an agent, you didn't want an agent? I said, Well, you know, it's very nicely with Chris and if I ever become a director, I will certainly come back to you. And then suddenly, a few weeks later, I got a solicitor's letter. Because I no longer sent the 10% to Christian man. And this letter said why was I not honouring my contract with Christopher man and say And then him 10%. And I said, well, because my contract with crystal Romain has expired. The lawyer then asked me to refer to clause whatever it was in my contract, which said that if I did not give notice in writing three months before the termination of the three year contract, it was valid for a further three years. And so Christopher Mann claimed that I was legally under contract to him. Now, the only reason I mentioned this is and it's quite aside from anything else, was that I thought this was wickedly unfair. And I was encouraged to go to court. And I thought, well, you know, I'm sure I'll win, and all of that, and everybody encouraged me. But in fact, I lost because it was very clearly the clause in the contract said in writing. And although I had Chris it apparently agreed. He nevertheless did not, I had not put it in writing. And I lost the case now. With within the next year.

Ronald Neame  26:12  

I earned, I don't know how much I earned. But Christopher man said to me, and it was very nice of him really, under the circumstances. He said, Well, look, Ronnie, you have to pay the court case, the the, the court, you have to pay all the expenses, all the costs. And he said, It just so happens that the costs amount to the approximate have the same amount as you would have paid me attend the 10% commission. So he said, you pay the costs, and I will let you off the commission. That, of course, didn't happen for a long time ahead. But it was an interesting thing to happen. He won, he won the case. And then he having won the case, he let me off the commission. And I paid the costs. And the only reason I meant to mention this is because when I became a producer, I went back to Chris, and I said, Now, Chris, I need an agent. And I can't think of anybody I would rather be with you. But no contract. And I was with him for at least 25 years. And well anyway until he died, which must have been 25 years or 30 years. It's just it's a separate story.

Roy Fowler 1  27:35  

You didn't feel that he'd misled you wrote on the duty on you by not pointing out that clause in

Ronald Neame  27:39  

the yes, at the time, I thought well, that was pretty bloody mean of him. And I really felt that and I think it was, but then he did the generous thing having one and proved his point, you see. But anyway, the only reason I mentioned that is that I don't think Chris had anything to do with the credits or anything on in which we serve. It was something that was decided between Danny Hemlock, Galen and Noel Coward and David Lean and myself. But what did happen was that Noah gave us this mammoth sized screenplay. And we had this problem, we thought, well, how on earth can we keep the best of this screenplay, and yet, get it down to a two hour length. And it was then that we had the idea, and I'm pretty certain it was David's idea of doing it in the form of a flashback that when the ship turns over, and they were all clinging around the car, they float, that we would go up to each character in turn clinging to this raft, and go back from them to some incident or some episode out of their past.

Roy Fowler  29:05  

Was Citizen Kane a conscious influence. Do you think?

Ronald Neame  29:08  

I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't have an influence on David certainly. Although it was very different from that, but nevertheless, it enabled us when you see the various characters for example, it was Johnny Mills, who played an A B, there was Bernard miles who played a petty officer. I think there was Michael wilding, who played one of the officers were a whole bunch of them, I can't remember them all now. And we were able to go back and pick out the best episodes in their lives before they in fact joined this ship. And we use this what we used to call a ripple dissolve, which which I invented with a sort of glass slit was slid across the front of the lens that had that was done in the camera. Yes. And so well when he was say it was done on the camera now that's not strictly true It was done in the in the optical printer. But it was it was really a piece of distorted glass that gave the effect. And indeed, we made a screenplay I still don't know who has the screenplay credit for in which we serve, I can't remember any longer it may be that knows still has the full screenplay credit,

Roy Fowler 1  30:34  

I think is written and directed. It knows, written and produced by I think, is it I'm guessing? Yes,

Ronald Neame  30:40  

I can't remember anymore. So that's two months ago

Roy Fowler  30:43  

when do the die look.

Ronald Neame  30:46  

Now at that, at the time, when we were going to make this film, it was almost impossible to get steel and get any of the material we needed to build this the destroyer. And I remember that Lord Louie used his influence and helped us obtain the unobtainable. And we built two thirds of a full size destroyer in the big stage at Denham. And the whole of this two thirds of this destroyer was were on hydraulic, rock rocking and rolling platforms. The whole thing was it was a fantastic piece of of engineering, really, the art director sounds

Roy Fowler 1  31:40  

like the biggest production in those terms to be made in England

Ronald Neame  31:45  

without any doubt, without any doubt. And it was really remarkable to see the whole length of this big stage at denim and to see this ship literally rolling and, and rocking. And of course in order that you we could give that impression on the screen, we had to always keep the cameras separate from the ship. Because if we put the camera on the ship, then it wouldn't have appeared to rot. So we were always on a crane always free off the floor of the ship so that when the ship rocked, we got the impression of it rocking

Roy Fowler 1  32:18  

it said the Navy the Admiralty didn't want to fill need because the shows

Ronald Neame  32:22  

the the we had tremendous opposition to the whole to the film from practically everybody. Because they regarded it as being a downbeat story because the British ship was sunk. And this was not the kind of thing to do if we wanted good propaganda for the war effort, but there was and one of the most vehement ly opposed to the making of the film was very powerful gentleman Lord, Beaverbrook and Beaverbrook did everything he could to damn the film before it started through the Daily Express in the Evening Standard. And you would read stupid things you would read in let say, the Evening Standard one evening you'd read. How can be a feat matinee idol, Nodl Coward, possible possibly played convincingly? The captain of a destroyer in wartime Britain be? Well, you'd see in one of his papers, and then the next day you'd see him John Gordon's column. The trouble within with Britain is we're so busy discussing whether or not clever Mr. Coward can play the captain D ever destroy it, that we're forgetting that we're supposed to be at war. And the the holder of the beaver press tried to kill the picture before it even started. I think Beaverbrook had some official capacity in the ministry of information or something at that time, wasn't the Minister of supply he could have been. Anyway, he

Roy Fowler 1  33:58  

asked you with the new minimum source, if you remember that was around that time. Oh, yes. Yes, that's right. Yeah. I think he was a minister of aircraft production or something, something like

Ronald Neame  34:10  

that. Anyway, he was very vehement now, no, very early on, had his own back. Because into the screenplay, he wrote a sequence in which you cut to a close shot of the headlines of the Daily Express, which said there will be no war this year. And in the film, we cut from that to a bomb exploding, and a whole battery of guns going off and all of that, and then we cut to the Daily Express floating in the harbour of shitty, filthy water with that headlines, and it was very, very good. but somebody had had a look at that script, somebody from the Beaverbrook press had, obviously got hold of a script at some point. Because we could not find anywhere a copy of the Daily Express of the date we wanted. There just wasn't one anywhere. However, in the end, we did find that one of the museums had evacuated all their documents to somewhere in the country. And we sent a steal man down. And lo and behold, he found a copy of the Daily Express in the museum. And with his Leica camera, he got a photograph of the, the headlines of that particular day. And so we were able to shoot the scene. Now. There's an interesting payoff to all of this. Because all the way through the film, there'll be a book press. We're having a go at this whenever they could find something bitchy to say they would say it. And when it came to the showing of the film, which I'll jump ahead to, but I'll have to go back obviously, when it came to the pressure, the film, being the beaver sent everybody off his news, both US newspapers expressing the standard, a whole mess of them went to see the film. Earlier, the big of it had written to know and said, Dear Mr. Cow, DNL cow, I gather you have now finished your epic film. And it would be very nice if you would allow me to take a look at it. And no responded by saying that in the ordinary way. He did not like his films to be shown to anybody until they were shown at the press Show. However, in the case of Lord Beaverbrook, he, of course, would be only too glad to send him a script, if he would name the day that he would like it sent. Beaverbrook then reply with another letter saying he was very sorry. But he'd found out after all, that he hadn't got time to see the film. I mean, it was, it was really very cherished the whole thing, however. And this proves in a kind of a way that Beaverbrook was a pretty big man. They all went to see the film, the film critic, the gossip columnist, John Gordon, everybody in the standard people. And without exception, they all said, This is the greatest film that has ever come out of Britain. And so that was a generous gesture. I think if the film had been bad, I think he would absolutely slaughtered in nursing. But it showed it showed qualities in the man in Beaverbrook,

Roy Fowler 1  37:48  

when either that or practicality they were very foolish. Yes, that's true. Yes. In which we serve that time because it opened an instance. Yes,

Ronald Neame  37:58  

it did. But now going back to the beginning, not only did we get an enormous amount of assistance from Lord Louis in terms of, of equipment, and in terms of steel, and in terms of hydraulic lifts, God knows what else, but we also got the use of the Navy personnel. All the the sailors in that film were all real sailors. The guards when when the the Dunkirk sequence where all the guards are lined up, having come back from Dunkirk, they were all real guardsmen that had really done that at all, through the influence of Lord Louis, who used to come down and see us a lot on the set and became very, very staunch champion. But before this happened, there is a story that should be told because in a kind of a way, it's a justification for people like Filippo Del lucci, who was a pirate, who was dishonest, really, because he just didn't tell the truth. But he engaged David and I, he took the rented stages at a denim. He had sets being built. And he engaged a unit of 40 or 50 people. And in due course we started to shoot the film. And at the end of about the eighth or ninth day of shooting, Dell asked Tony and David and I if we would go and see him in the evening after we'd finished shooting but not to tell no. And so in due course So we arrived at Dells office and we said, yeah, what is it? And they'll say, Well, I have something very terrible to happen. I have to tell you, Oh, we have no money. So what? He said, We have no money. I'll be simple. What about the enormous cocktail party, which by the way he gave before we started shooting, which must have because God knows how much on credit says Dell, I can't leave the Savoy Hotel, because until I pay my bill, or he said, Well, what about all the sets, Denham studios gave me credit. But now I've got to start paying. And we have no money. So we said, What on earth are we going to do? He said, Well, we have one. Chance, one last chance. If you David can cut the film that we've got up to now together, I think maybe there was 10 days work and make it as as near a finished cut as possible. The man who was head of distribution of British land? I'm not sure his name wasn't Smith. Yes. Was it? He said, He has promised to come and look at what we've done on Monday. And he is our only hope. And so all over that weekend, David, edited and I joined him because I was always interested in the editing. And we cut the material together, which was about 15 minutes, I suppose. Phil, that's 20 minutes. And Smith came down. I wish he could remember his first name, came down on the Monday and saw the material and said, Okay, British law and will guaranteed. And we then had a distributor, and we then had money. And I don't think no was ever told about this. And then again, we went on with the film, which was had it had some real dramas, of course, it was the most dramatic film I think I've ever worked on in terms of the kinds of things that happened. For example, we had a great many explosions on the ship of shells, bursting on the ship, and so on and so forth. And it was one terrible episode when what we used to do was we used to put flesh powder into film cans. And these film cans were hidden behind the guns or the you know, sections of the ship and electrically contacted to the camera. And we could just press a button, bow the camera and upward goalie explosion and it was all calculated so that nobody was to near the explosion when it went off. But there was one shot we were doing in which there were three big explosions. And we had done one take. And it was pretty good. But as so often happens, you know, let's just do one more. And the chief electtrician called John Dymo of our denim studios and his two men who helped him went onto the deck to to read fill the film cans with flash powder for the next take. And what they didn't realise was that the tins were white hot from the previous take. And Jack had this bottle of fresh powder this size. And he poured the fresh powder into the tin and it went up and it blew all three of them off the deck of the ship which was way off the ground because it was only more these hydraulics and they were desperately badly made faces and just died at night. So that was one of the kind of dramatic things that we had during the film. There was an uncomfortable period which was life.

Ronald Neame  44:56  

Try and keep the shadow side A same side so that so what you were doing was you were imitating life you will be, there's no better light than, than the light that God gives us from the sun. But the nearer you got to that the better.

Ronald Neame  45:21  

We had at least 10 days work with the main principles clinging to the, the float, the Carley float, as it's called, in this thick oil, which was covered the surface of the sea because the destroyer returned over, and all the oil was spilling out into the, into the sea. And so these characters, including Noel, had to cling to this float in this filthy, filthy oil, day after day after day. And every day they got more and more bad tempered, and having to do this, they they really hated it. And but there was nothing we could do about it. I mean, and but the actors were sort of saying, well, it's very well, for you, you lost the unit, David, now, you're standing on the side of the flipping tank. We're in this wretched filth all day long. And it's beginning to get beyond a joke, which indeed it was. But the ringleader of the rat against us was no who complain more bitterly than anybody else. And said, this is we're being treated that cattle, it's ridiculous, something has to be done. And it became so bad that we almost had a revolt on our hands. And David, neither David nor I dare go near the edge of the tank, because they would have pulled us in. And so one day, we thought, well, you know, we've got to talk to Noel about this. Because otherwise, what's going to happen? So that evening, we saw it no out in his dressing room, we said, can we come and talk to you? Yes. He said, by all means, what is it? So we went in? And we said no, no, look, now, you are the producer of this film, as well as being the writer and as well as acting in it. And you really are behaving very, very badly. You should be supporting us. Because you are the maker of this film just as much as we are. And now said, when I am an actor, I am an actor. And the actors are my friends, and you are the enemy. And that was the end of that compensation.

Roy Fowler  47:49  

I was the problem. So though was well, you know,

Ronald Neame  47:53  

he did behave a little better after that. And we got over the worst of it. We were into the last third of it. And although he said that we were the only way he nevertheless realized that he had a sense of responsibility towards it. And so he behaved much better. And he said, Well, come on, fellas, we can manage we can do it. And indeed We did it. And I don't know those are the main incidents, I suppose. Connected with the film.

Roy Fowler 1  48:25  

What was still judicious rolled and when they were getting it going. He was

Ronald Neame  48:31  

the packager and the Emperor Sario. And he was the Darryl Zanuck of the outfit, if you like any

Roy Fowler 1  48:36  

input at any stage, creatively I

Ronald Neame  48:40  

know he didn't know he taught it to us. I mean, he was very much an executive and very glad to be that he didn't want to interfere in any way in the making of the film. And once he got the distribution guarantee, you know, we were fine. We went ahead and we made the rest of the film without any problems.

Roy Fowler 1  49:02  

We'll talk about him I suppose in in good time. But to ask was he then as flamboyant Aziz later became

Ronald Neame  49:09  

Oh, yeah, he was always a very flamboyant character. Very, always very important right from the beginning. Indeed, I don't think he could ever have made the I don't think film would ever have been made if it had not been for his flamboyance. And I believe that I believe very strongly that there is a there is room for these kinds of pirates. I call them pirates. I think we need more of them in our industry. I mean, Alexander Korda was a pirate in no uncertain way. And so most of these characters Darryl Zanuck certainly was and I think we need them I think that it's it's a shame we don't any longer have if nothing else though. The bridge to the money. That's right. Yes.

Roy Fowler 1  49:57  

It's would seem to be a cop. I know cooperative in shooting the pictures,

Ronald Neame  50:03  

it was very, very much a very close collaboration between between particularly the three of us particularly Tony have lucked out and and David and

Roy Fowler 1  50:13  

I so this was the beginning of that particular association it was

Ronald Neame  50:16  

the beginning of that association which eventually caused us a little bit later to form cine Guild and become our own little entity, which no really didn't appreciate

Roy Fowler  50:31  

was David, as director, a great stone master already in those days was the very single purpose.

Ronald Neame  50:40  

Completely single minded David is I mean, film was to David where his entire life I mean, it was film and that was all he was interested in right from the beginning or ever became interested in very completely dedicated in some ways, completely humourless. He was very, very earnest. I don't know how I how he ever made blood spirit, which was an out and out comedy because it was a blast spirit even was a pretty heavy business because of David. But yes, but But in those days, and even up to an including great expectations, which I produced. David was, you could talk to David, you could tell him he'd got to get out of the set, you know, by tomorrow night. And he would say, well, I'll do my best. It was before the days when David was so powerful that he could pretty well do what he wanted. There was no point in him having a producer really, he after, after great expectations and Oliver Twist, but Sam Spiegel managed to sort of handle him. I think Sam was very good for David, although David's complained bitterly about Sam in later years. But certainly in which we serve was the forerunner of of our little company.

Roy Fowler  52:12  

Could we just for a moment widen the scope, because all of a sudden it does seem there is a flowering in British film. Yes. It's a watershed. When suddenly there are people who have just been doing jobs before suddenly they become master filmmakers. And it's almost overnight. Yes. With Nicky Powell and Emerick Pressburger on 49th parallel, and yeah, it was the group on in which we sort of was it the wall that occasion? The fact that a lot of Americans had gone down? Yes,

Ronald Neame  52:46  

I think I think that had a lot to do with it. We, we were at our very, very best during those years. And you know, I believe that during bad years, countries do make their best films, I add seems, seems to me that earlier, Germany will Ufa. And in the go back to the First World War, they were the great days of the German film. Yes. And I think that had something to do with it. There was a tremendous feeling, of course of patriotism. involved in it. And of course, it all happened. So fortunately, you see to city films was nothing to do with with rank. It was really slam in which we serve was British, had it not been John Sutro. Before John always managed to raise some money, yes. Usually some front money or enough money to help to get some films going. And they were they were different entities growing up around us. But Dell was the big supporter of of Laurence Olivier on Henry, the fifth, that was deluged. And and Dell became the impresario of the time without any doubt, but hated by John Davis, John Davis just didn't like him at all, and 14 all along the line. But there's no doubt that that Dell set us off in the right direction at that time. Now, then what happened it was that when we joined just around about the time of in which we serve, or just afterwards, and when we formed this little company, cine guild, Arthur rank came right to the fore. Because Arthur up until now had been making his religious films, but as I said earlier on was finding it very hard to have them screened. And he was a very A wealthy man not only in his own right, but through his various companies and through the flour mills, the rank flour. And he virtually bought to go on circuit and the Odium circuit in order to be able to show his religious films. I mean, there's no doubt about that. And I think that is touched upon in the not very good tape of that you were mentioning it lunch, the author rank tape?

Roy Fowler 1  55:27  

Yes, yes, I think to say there's Methodism and his madness. Yes,

Ronald Neame  55:31  

that's right. But there's no doubt that it was the that was the reason he bought those circuits or got involved in them was to show his religious films. But then he found that he had to make films, because otherwise the Americans, were going to just drive much too hard a bargain, because if he hadn't got the films to show, the Americans could name their price pretty well. So really, and truly, the rank organisation started to make films in self defence against the Americans. So for a while, there was tremendous encouragement to anybody that can make a film to make a film. You

Roy Fowler 1  56:16  

knew Uncle Arthur, don't you think also there was an aspect of he was he was bitten by the virus or taken by the virus and films interested in?

Ronald Neame  56:26  

Yes, as he became, we very shortly after the forming of cine guild, we we all banded together, to to become part of independent producers, which was a company formed by rank with 10 or 12 of us all filmmakers, to supply the product that he needed. And he was our chairman. And we used to have a meeting every month with Uncle Arthur. And he was chairman and we discussed what we were going to make and, and which which of our little companies it was going to make which and, and then eventually a fella called George Archibald was made a managing director who then became Lord Archibald. And then he was primarily done to as a buffer against the Americans charging too much. And, but we know there was, as I say that there was there was Michael and Emeric Pressburger, Michael Powell, Emeric Pressburger and Sidney Gilliat. And Frank launder and the and Dara Rempel. And one or two other names, he was forgotten and Tony and David and I and we were, we were quite a little bunch to reckon with and we were very, very important in those days. I mean, we were the British film industry. Now, there was the opposition camp, of course, which was Korda, because Korda was also making films. And so we really had a really well with bunch of filmmakers with

Roy Fowler  57:59  

respect. Running accordingly was at this point still absent. I think he was not back yet. Well, maybe about 43 but didn't make anything until 45 hours later, is that the I remember when Caesar was being shot, he was shooting vacation from marriage or perfect strangers. That was first.

Ronald Neame  58:21  

Was that Bob Dannette? Yeah,

Roy Fowler 1  58:23  

I'm dead recall. Yes. So before we come on to your next move off, where have we finished with in which we serve terms of completion, completing the picture and opening it? I

Ronald Neame  58:35  

think so. Yes, I think so. Really? Again, we had a visit from the royal family of course, yes, they all came down including the present queen and Margaret and their parents and we packed them aboard our destroyer and it was great occasion 

Roy Fowler 1  58:53  

that was what  cousin Louis

Ronald Neame  58:57  

Louis organised that and Noel was was very gracious host. And they were great days. But I think I didn't think there's anything else really on in which we serve. No claims that he was nearly swept away because we were careless when he had to be swept away from from the bridge when the ship turns over. But that was no Oh, exaggerating a bit because we we were very careful to test things out before he had to do anything.

Roy Fowler 1  59:25  

Just do. Well, it is not as fun. I think that holds up still. And he's of its time as we were saying over lunch because yes, three character development of the working class. Yes. So it's all of its time.

Ronald Neame  59:45  

And that's of course, where we met Celia for the first time. Celia Johnson, who was such a lovely actress and who worked with me afterwards quite a bit. I mean, well, she was in This Happy Breed, of course, and then I had her much more later in "The Prime Of  Miss Jean Brodie"

Roy Fowler 1  1:00:03  

May I just? Well, two things I want to say. First of all we left One of our Aircraft is Missing without having a kind of summation or thumbnail sketch about Powell and Pressburger. You worked with him again after that. Other than those,

Ronald Neame  1:00:19  

I never never worked with him in in any official capacity, but we were always very close to them. They were they were at the very height of their their teamwork, which was excellent. And I mean, as you know, they followed up with Stairway to Heaven and Catalina, she's probably gonna say yes. And we were all very close friends, including Frank and Sydney, who made one or two quite successful films as well, including the the Girls School . What was that - St Trinians comedies and things like that that was post war to it was. And

Roy Fowler 1  1:01:01  

they were at Gainsburgh, I think at this point with where they at

Ronald Neame  1:01:05  

this time, but they joined us very shortly afterwards. I think they were with us. If not during I think they were with us during this happy breed. I'm pretty certain they joined us.

Roy Fowler 1  1:01:15  

For last two citizen was it for you know,

Ronald Neame  1:01:19  

that was very brief was the first this happy breed was the I think the first rank picture. I didn't know whether it was just it was whether he was? Well, I think by now No, I think Dell was still there. But I think I'm right in saying that it was ranked distribution. I think this happy breed and blah spirit, but both Rank distribution. And we made those two one following the other. And this happy breed was my first attempt at colour. The first film we made in colour

Roy Fowler 1  1:01:59  

that is again in the future. Could I just ask you about your memories of Emeric Pressburger who is not that well no, no suspect

Ronald Neame  1:02:07  

very quiet very quiet. Gentleman like a lot of writers he spoke through his his his pen. A very nice man a very polite man. Are you gentleman? Yes, I

Roy Fowler 1  1:02:19  

remember. did not understand and of course then I knew Yes. But very

Ronald Neame  1:02:23  

quiet. And Mickey power was the flamboyant one in that in that partnership make was in fact MC sometimes used to drive me around the bend I once walked off his set when I thought during one of our aircraft is missing. I can say I said once well you can stuff your picture up here as far as I'm concerned. I walked up. He came chasing after me. I don't know some I don't remember it must have been completely unimportant. But I know he came chasing after me and asked why I was upset and I said well because you're so impossible to work with or something the reputation of the difficult he was he was he was he was very unkind to actors and actresses. He used to have actresses in tears invariably, except for the girl who played in the the ballet picture. Myra Shira? Yes. Maya Shira got his measure? Yes, I'm sure. But she but she never made her cry. She just would say I think that's very simply Mr. Powell. And

Roy Fowler 1  1:03:31  

well, here we are. What is 4142 when in which we serve is released? Is it No. Mendes success? Yes.

Ronald Neame  1:03:38  

And enormous success which precipitated us into sin and guilt, the filming of sin and guilt. And for our first two subjects, working with nose material. No, was very, very patronising about cine guild, as he used to call it. Where did the name come from? Tony Havoc ALLEN I think thought about it. We there were several names suggested. And I think Tony, Tony was the one that gave that suggestion which we took up. And with this happy breed, we decided to make it in colour because we wanted to make it we wanted to see if you could use color. To make drabness up to now colour it only been used as glorious Technicolor. And we wanted to see and I particularly wanted to see whether I couldn't use colour to show the CDs side of life. And we worked very hard at that we made all these sets we sprayed them all with dirty grey and brown and where we had a bath for example, whether we made the Tidemark around the bath where the water had been and the various everything had to be added they've done in its sordidness in order to create the sordidness on the screen. But I think we succeeded very well. America didn't know what we were up to. They never. They didn't know that. I mean, they they thought technically should, should be glorious. And I think they were a bit shocked at muted colour. But I was very pleased with it.

Roy Fowler 1  1:05:24  

Did you have troubles with Technicolor was straighten about always?

Ronald Neame  1:05:28  

No, we had a lady Joan bridges who used to come on the set, and we would be seen stealing a piece of wallpaper to take it back to Technicolor, so that they could get get the same colour on the screen.

Roy Fowler  1:05:43  

How about Mrs. Columbus?

Ronald Neame  1:05:45  

She never came on. No, she wasn't in England throughout the throughout either of those pictures. But this happy breed went long, pretty merrily, except for the big drama at the end. Which, again, is a personal story. But it is quite fun. And it's history in a way to Bob Newton was heavily drinking heavily during the time before. Before this happy breed, and people were saying, Well, you can't employ Bob because he drinks too much. And so Bob's contract had a clause in it that Nell insisted on having in it because no, it was still very much in charge. You know, I mean, when I say in charge, he was never on the set. But nevertheless, he was he was still our, as it were a champion in our boss man and away, particularly as we were making his material. And so he said, All right, Bob, you can play this part. But there is going to be a clause in your contract, that every time you come on the set drunk, you forfeit 500 pounds. Well, since Bob was only being paid, I think it was 8000 pounds for the whole picture. He only had to be drunk a few times, and he would lose all his salary. And but the problem with Bob Newton, who was a wonderful actor was that if he hadn't had a drink at all, he tended to be a little dull. If he'd had a couple of drinks, he was very good. If he had too much to drink, he was impossible. So you had to catch Bob, you know, at a certain stage, but he wasn't allowed to drink at all during the whole of the making this happy breed. And I think David felt that he had problems with him. Although I must say looking back, I think he was pretty good. But I know that we were all a bit critical of Bob. We didn't feel that he was he was pulling his weight ceiling was wonderful.

Roy Fowler 1  1:07:57  

It's the one performance that doesn't work. If I may say yes,

Ronald Neame  1:08:02  

well, that is what we all felt at the time. Celia was wonderful. Kay Walsh was good. Gianni Mills was good. And there's something later on about this, about Celia that I mustn't forget to tell you. But for the moment that stay with Bob, Bob remained completely sober all the way through the film until the last two weeks. And just about two weeks before we finished the picture, Noah gave an enormous party in the West End Haymarket Theatre, where he was finishing a run of present laughter. And I don't know which of the other plays

Roy Fowler 1  1:08:50  

Was it not this happy, I think, didn't he play them in tandem? It

Ronald Neame  1:08:54  

might have been as happy but I know present laughter was on I saw them in terms and I see your dad's during the time when and it was Haymarket theatre. And now decided to give an enormous party to the whole of the theatre world of London. And by an enormous party, I mean, there were about 200 people there, and anybody and everybody that was of any real importance, we were invited then our respective wise because we were making this happy breed for him. And so we were included. But Bob Newton was not, in fact it. And we were halfway through this party, and it was on two levels. The backstage at the Haymarket has been down below level. And it has a top level where there's a big bar. And we were standing at the bar David and Tony and I are having having having a drink. And suddenly I looked up and they're standing in the doorway was Bob Newton and Bob Newton was absolutely rolling drunk. He could hardly stand up. He was so drunk. And he looked around the room and he staggered in. Then he staggered across to us and said, and why wasn't I invited to this elite party? Why was I not told that this party was going on? And we all thought, oh crikey, that this is going to be terrible. Because if no, sees Bob, in this state, it's going to the repercussions are going to be heard. So we said, look, Bob, for God's sake, go away, leave, don't get your Europe, you've had too much to drink. If no finds out, you're gonna pick me up half your salary is going to be chopped and goat just for God's sake, go home. I am not going anywhere. I am staying here. And then he caught sight of an enormous picture on the wall painting of Sir Henry Irving. And he staggers across to this painting. And he looks up at Henry Irving and he says, What would you have thought of this ridiculous homosexual man, no coward, desecrating your theatre, and cetera, et cetera. And he was impossible. But we couldn't get him out, not without absolutely starting a fight. And, of course, know her that he was there. And now wanted to avoid any problems. So Joyce Grenfell was doing one of her little acts at the piano and songs and things. And, at this point, Bob Newton's start staggering down the stairs to the lower part where everybody was sitting around on the floor and on chairs listening to Joyce Greenfield. And eventually, everybody applauded Joyce, and, and Bob was going up like this, you know? And no, then thought, crikey, what shall I do and said no into the piano and said, we're also terribly bohemian outraged and started to play and started to sing some of his songs to which he had very risqué as it was calling those days lyrics for special occasions. And Bob Newton sort of kept on passing remarks. And the whole thing was getting out of hand. And David and Tony and I had a little discussion with Well, another fellow whose name I've forgotten, and we decided we'd got to get him out. So we moved in, I grabbed one leg, David, grab the other leg, tourney, grabbed an arm and the other fellow another arm, and we literally carted him across the room and up the stairs. With Bob saying, I am not leaving without my hat. I had a hat. When I came in, and I'm going out with a hat or I'm not going we got him up to the top of the stairs. Somebody found his hat and put it on his tummy, by which time somebody had sent to the police. So Bob was handed over to the police. And the party went down. And an hour later, my wife and I were walking up the hay market towards Piccadilly Circus where we parked the car somewhere around the corner there. And there was a big crowd gathered around a shop and a police fairing. And lo and behold, inside in the alcove made by the doorway of the shop, was Bob Newton, stripped to the waist, struggling with two policemen. What had happened, I don't know they must have released him when they took him out from the party and he must have been, you know, whatever he did, I don't know they were cold again. And of course it took him off to Bow Street. And next morning, he was on call at 830 and of course there was no Bob. And so we had to send somebody up to both Street police station we bailed him out. He had a great gash down one side of his face, so we could only shoot on the other side. And, and of course, he had 500 knocked off his salary. And indeed, between then and the end of the picture. He had at least four more days when he was inebriated. But we finally got through. But it was during that film that when realised what a an extraordinary actress Celia Johnson was because I really do Leave, that she could read the, the yellow pages, she could read the telephone directory and make you cry. She had such a wonderful capacity. She was she was I didn't know what it was about. And I remember and again, you know, we were right in the middle of the war, and there was no Benadryl and Celia used to go by train, she had to go up to London. From denim and then she had to catch a train from London to nettle bed. And near Henley, which is where her home was. And we worked six day week, in those days, who worked Saturday as well. But we always used to let Celia go at lunchtime on Saturday, so that she could get home and do her shopping for the weekend and look after her family side because although Celia was a great actress, her family were more important to her than than her acting. The acting was second. And so we used to let her go at lunchtime. But on this particular occasion, there was a very important sequence that we were we had to rehearse where Kay Walsh her daughter comes back home, having run off with a young man and it's a very moving scene, indeed, a real real tear jerker have a scene. And David wanted to rehearse this once the whole sequence just went through, so that we could then spend the afternoon lining it up and preparing it for Monday morning. And so Celia was due to be released to catch her train. And David said, Celia, we do want to rehearse the sequence through once before you go. And Celia said, Well, it's very unfair of you all. You know very well, if Saturday is my one day, if you keep me I'm going to miss my train. And if I miss this train, I'm going to be two hours before there's another one from to get me home. And I think it's very unkind of you and very unfair of you and I don't like it a bit. And David sits, Celia, just one through at all just one through and then off you go, and you can still make your trade. And she said, Oh, very well. Alright, let's, let's do it. And we rehearsed this sequence. And I promised you that at the end of the rehearsal, there was not one person on that set who didn't have tears in their eyes. Because she played it's so beautiful. And it was so moving. But as we finished the sequence, and the even tougher electrician said, tears, Celia looks at our watch, and says, if I go now, I can just make it is that alright? And it hadn't affected her at all. I mean, she brought us all the tears, but she had simply performed her job, but then wanted to go home. And that was what the kind of actress she was. I remember that

Roy Fowler 1  1:18:09  

scene. She comes down in a dressing gown, doesn't she? I think so finds the letter, and there's nothing when you meet

Ronald Neame  1:18:14  

Well, that's when the girl is gone. I know that. It's when the girl comes back. The girl comes back.

Roy Fowler 1  1:18:18  

Yes, yes, indeed. You know, yes. You've been very naughty girl.

Ronald Neame  1:18:21  

That's right. Yes.

Roy Fowler 1  1:18:22  

There's one other absolutely stunning scene, which is very theatrical. But it works marvelously in film, which is when reg is killed. Oh, yes. And the radio is playing and the camera just flops around slowly. That

Ronald Neame  1:18:35  

was that was my idea. And I'll bet you David thought it was his idea, because you always forget. But David was very worried because we didn't want to have where we couldn't have them tell her what had happened. Because, you know, we didn't want the dialogue. At the same time holding a set, static, just wouldn't have worked. And so I said, I remember very clearly it was there. It was yesterday. I said, David, supposing we track very slowly across the set, so that you get the feeling that any minute now we're going to see them out in the garden and see what they're doing. And it did the trick.

Roy Fowler 1  1:19:14  

Yes. And she comes in and she says that's it weighs slightly. Yes. Yes.

Ronald Neame  1:19:21  

Yes, that was fantastic. Sometimes Ryan remembers little things that one has contributed.

Roy Fowler 1  1:19:25  

It's what makes the difference between a movie? Yes, no, this happy breed looks very expensive film. What was it?

Ronald Neame  1:19:35  

No, I don't think so. Funnily enough, we spent more on the what we were worried about was that it would be very static, because it all takes place in the one little house. And so we had the idea that we would link it to all the important events of the period. The Wembley exhibition, for example. What

Roy Fowler  1:20:01  

I didn't want you to build for Well, we

Ronald Neame  1:20:03  

did spend, there was as much money spent on those little snippets in between the main sequence as they was on the rest of the shooting the picture, how

Roy Fowler 1  1:20:15  

did you do in the Wembley sequence? The there's an enormous background of the building, kind of Indian domed building and they're in the foreground. Now I tried to figure out, I wonder if you might remember because I would only remember if I saw it if it were a process shot. It's very difficult how you did

Ronald Neame  1:20:37  

it could have been a matchup. It could have been good for the time. We did some very good math but we had a wonderful math artists called Papa day or somebody like that. Person day was it. And he was very good. We did some very, very good math shots in those days. Well,

Roy Fowler 1  1:20:59  

it looks big. Yeah, the victory parade for example, again, economically shot Yes.

Ronald Neame  1:21:07  

Funny. It's that's one of those one of those pictures I remember less well, and then some of the others.

Roy Fowler 1  1:21:15  

I think it's a neglected film. And again, because it's it's dated 1940s play. Yes. People I think are kind of this lovely film, how much of the Street was built the suite in which they live? Now

Ronald Neame  1:21:32  

that was a real street location. Yes. That was creation somewhere in Bella more, more tapper more somewhere there. And I seem to remember it was supposed to be pre war, of course. And I think all the houses they, because it was during the war, all the windows had that paper, sticky strips of yours, and then we had to get permission to take off.

Roy Fowler  1:22:02  

No television aerials. Now,

Ronald Neame  1:22:04  

that came later.

Roy Fowler  1:22:08  

There's one thing actually I wanted to ask you about this idea of in which we serve, and that is the it really relates to this sudden flowering of ability and talent and professionalism, which I'm sure existed before that was less apparent, I suppose, because of strictures of time and such. But the model work in which we serve again, is really quite stunning. Yes. Did you shoot all the inserts the miniatures, or the

Ronald Neame  1:22:40  

miniatures? No, I don't think I think we had a second unit doing miniatures. It was a very good one. There were very good managers. Not as good as besides an adventurer much later when we built the whole two years later. Yes.

Roy Fowler 1  1:22:55  

It suddenly things are working in this country. Yes. Previously, had been a little dodgy,

Ronald Neame  1:23:01  

I think, really, because for the first time, the filmmakers were given completely create complete creative freedom and the money to do it. And rank would not have anybody interfere with us at all. We just did it our way. There was nobody there to tell us to do it this way or that way. Or the other way. There wasn't I mean, there was a budget and there was a schedule that we hope to we try and keep reasonably to. But the it was, it was never as rigid as it's become since. And what whatever the film cost, that was what the film costs that we would give a sort of a an estimate of what it would be, but there was an arrow. We weren't criticised if we went a little bit over. Because Arthur wouldn't have his criticised, he just said, the money is our business. And education. It's very, is it very hard to resent me?

Roy Fowler 1  1:24:04  

For the rolling, I wanted to ask you about the gap between in which we serve and this Sebree because that was what two years so? Well, I think so if you think that in which we serve I think was released in 42, from memory. And this happy breed was I remember seeing this I could read when the flying bombs were going on. So that was 44. So it was two years. So what it was in preparation that time was

Ronald Neame  1:24:32  

I don't use it's amazing. I don't remember his taking that long. I don't remember. And yet that was the next picture we made, wasn't it? Yes, it was nothing in between. But I'm astonished. If you tell me it was two years I could. I could just believe a year but I'm not even sure I couldn't believe the year.

Roy Fowler 1  1:24:50  

Well, they certainly tidy schedules in those days. Well,

Ronald Neame  1:24:55  

they were longer they were longer but you see, I honestly can't remember how many we Excuse my get my feeling is that there were about there around about the 12 week mark. Between 12 and 14 weeks, it will definitely be longer. Yes.

Roy Fowler 1  1:25:12  

How about the the problems of the wall? Did they get increasingly worse? Materials?

Ronald Neame  1:25:18  

No. Materials were shortage but of course, in which we serve, we had the support of Mountbatten who managed to get over all the hurdles for us. In the case of this happy breed, well, you know, what, there wasn't much to deal with most of it was, I mean, four fifths of the picture where it was just that house, which didn't require any any specific things, I suppose. Yes. And also, you know, that was, as I remember it, that was the sort of lull period in the war. The the, the Blitz area was around about major Barbara time, was 40 and 41. And I think by 42, we settled down to a much more

Roy Fowler  1:26:13  

Hitler gone into Russia, and yes,

Ronald Neame  1:26:18  

yes, that's right. But there was comparative.

Roy Fowler 1  1:26:22  

It was peaceful, came flying bombs in middle 44.

Ronald Neame  1:26:27  

Well, then came, man, I just guess, I

Roy Fowler 1  1:26:30  

don't know whether this will have any reaction at all. To talk about denim and the electricians. There was a very famous works convener for the edu called The Bachelor and The Works Committee and the communist sell that in effect, run the studio, would you would you like to

Ronald Neame  1:26:49  

launch? Well, yes, one goes back to in which we serve again, of course, we used to do far watching at night. There was one of the prop property rooms or something one, there was a great big dormitory, which held about 20 bunks or beds, camp bed type of things, and 20 is more than must have been around about I seem to remember eight, eight, perhaps 816 It was either side, and in the centre, a sort of a stove throughout some heat. And I remember that the beds near to the stove that practically set the sheet some far. But then the other end was you were freezing to death. And we all had to have a roster of when there was a big roster of everybody in the studio, had to do fire watching. And this was organised by the Works Committee. But of course, it was never it never really any serious fire watching attached to it. They were mostly electricians and carpenters and painters and a few of us officer types thrown in. But it was cars all the time. It was a map, I think, I don't think they played anything as serious as poker. But there were about three or four schools of cards. And John Bryan and I who were on together, we used to, quite frankly, slip up to London and have had dinner in London, and had then come back around about midnight. And, and by which time everybody was going to bed and snoring. And nobody ever thought of. I mean, there was nothing happened to now I mean, nothing came near that studio. Target narrow. And so we none of us were too worried about this. However, Burt bachelor, who hated No, because he regarded him as the fastest of all time. And he said, everybody has to Firewatch and no car should not think that he's an exception. No car just as anybody else should do his fire watching. And so we were told no, he said Look, you've been asked if you will take a run with people join the roster and do some final judging very well. He said that they want me to find my child Firewatch so that came the day when I was on on duty when he was at work now that I wasn't done that night now that was tiny, but no it was. So now it comes in at around about 730 or eight and they're all car games going on. And Gnosis so we're in fire watching right. And it looks like he has right golf wanted to join the game. Gov. And now I said but I don't understand that. Aren't you supposed to be protecting the studio? Oh, it was called we all really, you know, but no, there's no nothing happening really is no said I don't know about that. But he said Do you all know what are the fire hydrants are

Roy Fowler 1  1:30:09  

just let me just backtrack slightly on that if you would please.

Ronald Neame  1:30:13  

So Noel comes in and and the electricians carpenters and all of them who liked him and knew Him because they were working on he said they you know, they said good evening. Gov. Want to join a game of cards. And now I said, are we not supposed to be fire watching? We wish we are really good. But you know, there isn't anything happening really very much. And now said, do you know all of you where the fire hydrants are in this building? Well, well, no, not really, God, we don't really know about that very much. We never it never had, we never been asked to look really. So now I said, Then very well, we are going we are fire watching and that is what we will do. We will Firewatch now we will go and we will find all the hydrants, right throughout the studio. They must be marked somewhere. So somebody said, Well, we have got a map here, God. So he takes all 16 of them or 15 of them and they proceed to go around every fire hydrant in the studio. And what is more, he not only makes them locate the fire hydrant, he makes them on roll the hose. He makes them turn on the water to make certain it's working. And then roll the hoses up again and put them back. And they were so shattered and so shocked. That they know is never again asked to do fat watching.

Roy Fowler  1:31:40  

There is a still in a book about David Lean on the backlot on a gun emplacement. On the ship. Yeah. And the crew looks absolutely marvelous because they've got the chokers and the cloth caps and the bowler hat. It looks like something out of 1893

Ronald Neame  1:31:59  

I really Yeah,

Roy Fowler 1  1:32:00  

I bring it in, if you will. Well, maybe I'm exaggerating slightly, but they couldn't look more as it were. A form of cloth cat brigade. Oh, yeah.

Ronald Neame  1:32:15  

Yes, I guess that's nice. I'd have to say that. Okay.

Roy Fowler  1:32:21  

What else to say? Oh, yes. Where are you at all involved in the cooperative film that was made a tournament 41 -42 When Russia came into the war and the works committee wanted to show solidarity. No, I

Ronald Neame  1:32:36  

never you must have

Roy Fowler 1  1:32:37  

been nothing working there because David Lean figures in an account of it given by but much less Sid. Cole? Oh, yes. I wanted to research it. Because he was he couldn't remember who edited the film. And it turned out it was he but they made a to Rila called our film.

Ronald Neame  1:33:01  

Ring any kind of girl very, very vaguely. But I know that I didn't have anything to do with it well, but

Roy Fowler 1  1:33:07  

national and suddenly it was kind of an executive producer. There was a turning down scripts by Emerick Pressburger and David Lean is quoted as saying you can't do that.

Ronald Neame  1:33:19  

Well, you know what happened with Bert Bachelor? You see, they they think he was such a menace really. And they thought, I don't know who thought it out. But they thought right. Well, what we'll do is we'll get Bert to join us. Now, we can't and so they sort of turned Bert into a producer character. Yes. And he then it that made him much better because he was so busy doing his own little thing that he forgot to do. cause problems.

Roy Fowler 1  1:33:52  

He ended up at London Weekend Television. That was a semi executive. Did he?

Ronald Neame  1:33:57  

Is he still alive? 

Roy Fowler 1  1:33:59  

No, he's dead. He's Hiss widow is now to Gibbons. We're not to interview because we were curious about we wanted to document it.

Ronald Neame  1:34:12  

Now I know very little about that. And I kind of think what I was doing, but is it true

Roy Fowler 1  1:34:16  

that this the the studio kind of was dominated by the works?

Ronald Neame  1:34:20  

Oh, yeah. Up to you. Yes. So anything I mean, they were they at you at that time were both really more belligerent than, than they ever been there before since they were terribly tough. With

Roy Fowler 1  1:34:33  

the industrial disputes and problems did they call the breakers all the time?

Ronald Neame  1:34:39  

No, they but they were very rigid on the on the time clock, but they always were even before even before the war I was remember the shop steward at Wembley Studios was was biocide is one I went a different direction to the other and We always said that he got that way. Because one I was watching the set the other way I was watching the clock.

Roy Fowler 1  1:35:07  

It really was their industrial strength that launched ACTT, wasn't it? Because without the backing or the support of eto, I

Ronald Neame  1:35:15  

suppose that so yes, I'm sure that. Yeah, we were all we we one time we thought we really because you know, as I say was a founding member, at one time, we thought we created a bit of a monster in the ACTT. When it or other it was the ACTT. Yes. I mean, we felt my god, what have we done? Oh,

Roy Fowler  1:35:38  

absolutely. I think that was what postwar was it or would it be when you had all the demarcation disputes and essentially small minded attitude?

Ronald Neame  1:35:51  

Yes, it was. But you see, again, maybe we'll find that out as we go along. But certainly, I think this happy breed I think, as I guess we've covered it really. I can't remember any other particularly specific things.

Roy Fowler  1:36:13  

Colour, you covered that, yes,

Ronald Neame  1:36:16  

more or less covered. They're very subdued colours. And I think rather good colours, I must say, I don't know what the prints like now, but rather gorgeous. Technicolor

Roy Fowler 1  1:36:23  

was noted for approach in those days, the subdued restraint. But

Ronald Neame  1:36:28  

then, of course, became very, very quickly after this happy Bry became too blind spirit.

Roy Fowler 1  1:36:34  

And I just asked you one question before we come on to blind spirit, which is it relates back to something you said earlier about black and white and separation in black and white? Yes. Now that you're dealing in Technicolor you have all the ability to

Ronald Neame  1:36:56  

work using color to make your separation,

Roy Fowler 1  1:36:59  

when when you were in black and white in the 30s. Was it? Was there any kind of liaison between design and photography? Did you work with the

Ronald Neame  1:37:10  

Oh, yes, very, very much. So because quite apart from anything else, one wanted to get the action in the foreground of the set. So that even if you were in close shot, you had the whole set as the background. So always the sets were designed so that if there was a great use of the staircase, for example, we then we would put the staircase in the foreground so that you had the benefit of all the set in the background. And also, and particularly in those early days during this happy breed, particularly, which was entirely a dialogue picture. David Lean and I used together to together work out the movements and and so that we we, the sets were built very much to suit the action very much as John Bryan was. And in the case of this happy breed it was John Brown. Yes.

Roy Fowler  1:38:08  

I suppose I

Ronald Neame  1:38:09  

was it. I just can't remember now. I know by spirit wasn't John Brown because I think John Brown split his time between denim and gut and go mountain Shepherds Bush. I think he was under contract to Shepherds Bush. And so one of those he didn't do he didn't do blind spirit.

Roy Fowler 1  1:38:25  

What about the masters? Ops? Director, gee Cawthra applied his call Trump. She always gets the credit, what actually did she do?

Ronald Neame  1:38:35  

Well, that is was really and truly she didn't know anything about designing for the screen. But she was knows personal theatrical designer. So she was really no sort of assistant. But on the on the, the I mean, I'm sure she helped you choose materials and for the curtains and maybe the set dressing and, and all of that aspect of it. She was a very nice woman, very bright woman, and very much our champion. We I was very fond of her. And then of course, there was Lauren, who was his secretary, Lauren Lorraine. We didn't see much of her. She worked in London. And then there was Joyce Kerry, who was his other friend. They were inseparable.

Roy Fowler  1:39:25  

She's not in that though. She

Ronald Neame  1:39:26  

she was she wasn't in which no, she wasn't in this happy read. I don't think

Roy Fowler 1  1:39:33  

she's in everything else. Yes. Yes. And I spirit and yes. That was the northern suggestion. Was it always? Oh, yes.

Ronald Neame  1:39:47  

Yes. He liked to have his little group.

Roy Fowler 1  1:39:51  

Okay, so now what we're in well, 84

Ronald Neame  1:39:55  

Yes, we are. Or late 43. I don't When did the war end? Yes, we were in 244. And enterprise spirit. Now, of course, blind spirit was a tremendous challenge to me as a as a cameraman. Because now wanted the ghost, he didn't want a transparent ghost, he wanted to have al Vera who was the the first wife, he wanted it to be rather like it had been done on the stage. They we dressed her in a sort of gray chiffon, and gave her very, very red nails and very, very red lips. And she had to be followed with a with green light, every shade everywhere she went, so that the whole of her finger was illuminated with green, on gray. And it gave a very strange look to it, particularly with the red nails and the lipstick, quite sort of sexy looking away. That, of course, whereas on the stage, it was fairly simple. I mean, they followed her with a spot. And it didn't matter if you were aware, there was a spotlight following this character, but on the screen, that would have been very artificial. So one had to create the same effect, without it ever being consciously a spotlight on her. And it was fairly Alright, so long as she wasn't involved with groups with other groups of people. But the moment for example, let's say she had to go behind somebody, and come out the other side or behind a piece of furniture and come out the other side. I had to, particularly when she went behind people, I had to somehow rather get rid of that green light when she went behind, but equally, I had to pick her up in green light when she came out the other side. And so what I did was I would have two and sometimes even three brutes with green filters on and a shutter on each of them. And so if she was to go behind somebody, I would close the shutter on that Brutus, she disappeared. And then I'd have another brute the other side also with a shutter on and as she appeared, I open the shutter. And I carried her through in green light all the way through the film. And nobody realises just how complicated that was. It was a very, very complicated piece of lighting.

Roy Fowler 1  1:42:41  

It works again, one one isn't aware of any. No,

Ronald Neame  1:42:45  

it does work very well. And I did see I did see blood spirit fairly recently. And it was a very good print, it was a new print. And I must say I thought well, my goodness, that's pretty well photographed. You have to remember that I had to use 1200 foot candles of for the key light. And now in color 150 Foot Candles is all you need. I was using 10 times the amount of light that you use today. uAnd that made the set very hot. And a great deal of Arclight. And very very very difficult. Very tough. With the three strip Technicolor Of course.

Roy Fowler 1  1:43:31  

I remember a season clip. The set would be absolutely ring.

Ronald Neame  1:43:36  

Yes, that's right, even though it was only a year later. Yes, that's true. Yes, I guess it was only a year later. But again, blood spirit was fun now didn't like it. No, it wasn't there when we shot the film. And he felt that we hadn't hadn't come off. He one time he was critical.

Roy Fowler  1:44:00  

said earlier David Lean perhaps was not best suited for comedy.

Ronald Neame  1:44:05  

Comedy was not his Meteor even though he did fairly well. But he he didn't get on all that well was Rex Harrison. Rex didn't and I guess it was because you know David? David was an absolute wonderful director with secure actors. But he wasn't at his best with anybody that had any insecurity. He didn't help that

Roy Fowler  1:44:33  

could he not be bothered to cost them was that

Ronald Neame  1:44:35  

he did? Yes, he didn't he didn't he see he didn't really like actors all that much. And for example, I remember now this is going back to this. This again back to either this happy breed or in which we serve. I can't remember which one because Johnny Mills was in both of them. But I always remember one one day we were shooting quite a complicated scene and And we've done about seven or eight takes. And finally, take eight seem to be perfection to David. So David was very, very anxious to know that it was alright for everybody. So I mean, the first person he turns to his me, how was it for you, Ronnie? Fine. And to the operating, you know? Okay. Very good. David. To the sound man sound. Yes, David. Very good, absolutely fine. And then he looked around and script girl, you know? How is it? You know, yes, match perfectly. And he asked everybody on the unit and Johnny Mills was standing there in front of the camera. And Johnny said, Well, what about the fucking actors then that we get asked what we think of it. And he was like that a little bit. He loved his unit. He loved his cameraman, the actors were a necessary evil.

Roy Fowler 1  1:45:57  

There's a great line that Yusef understand were used or josta. And as he was called, I think, talking about I, Claudius problems you have with Marlo Braun and Charles Oh, yes. And he says, actor, the production was closed down. And he says actress had truncated my phone.

Ronald Neame  1:46:19  

Yes. But anyway, a blind spirit, again, was pretty smooth running picture. Rex, as I say, was was uncomfortable. And even as recently as a year ago, just before Rex died about two months before it started. So I'm in a show in New York. And I didn't know we mentioned something about blood spirit. And even then, hundreds of years later, he was well, I didn't enjoy that very much now. But I think everybody else enjoyed it. And I must say, when I see it now, I think it's I think that does hold up. I don't think that's too dated.

Roy Fowler 1  1:47:04  

Well, the play works. And technically I think it works.

Ronald Neame  1:47:08  

Yes. And the idea that we had that footage as it should be? No, that's possible. But I do think that what was a good idea was that whenever we took up a point of view of any of the other actors, that ghost wasn't there. And then whenever we took up Rex's point of view, she was there. And I think that was rather good idea. And I think that worked well.

Roy Fowler  1:47:34  

A lovely actress is very fond of honey coming as well.

Ronald Neame  1:47:36  

Bless her. Yes. She's still around. Yes, yes. Very fond of Kenny Cummings. And indeed, all of them. Well, of course, I was, you see, as well as being the cameraman on blast spirit. I had a great deal to do with the production I was, I was already in a kind of a way becoming a producer. Because the attorney was there the attorney was very much secretive, and, and the line producing fell on me a little bit even though I was the cameraman. But I was remember Maggie Rutherford coming up to my office before we started shooting and saying, How do you like this outfit? And it was absolutely extraordinary outfit. Absolutely. Whoa, weird flowing in every direction. And I said, I said, it's absolutely wonderful. Margaret, where on earth did you get it? She said, What do you mean, where did I get it? It's mine. It's my own. She really wore this

Roy Fowler  1:48:38  

last year she was.

Ronald Neame  1:48:43  

And she was very funny. She was very, very good, indeed, quite mad, but very good. But then, and this, in some ways, is not a bad place for us to finish. Because what happened then was that it was very clear the war was going to come to an end very shortly. The v2 is had just started by the way. We'd gone through the V one period where we used to hear these things going over and we used to hear the engine stop, you remember and then we wait for them to drop. And we had that all the way through the earlier pictures up to an including this happy breed and I guess part of blood spirit. But then came the v2 situation and nobody knew quite what they were. And at the same time as that happened, blast spirit finished. And but and I didn't quite know why everybody was so confident looking back. But the the the feeling was that the war was going to end pretty soon. And it was then that Arthur rank said we have got to start preparing for or remaining a filmmaking entity that can become that can compete with the world as soon as the war is finished. And with that in mind, he said to me, Ronnie, would you go to Hollywood, and spend six weeks or eight weeks over there and find out all that you can find out about what we need here in order to be in competition, and with them over there. And so I was, I asked to go, and indeed, I was very interested in going. And one day, I took a train up to Glasgow, and the next day got into the Queen, Elizabeth, which was a troopship, and started on my trip to Hollywood. And that was 1944. And the whole of that trip is very much part of my life. Because when I came back, I came back convinced that I could produce a picture, which American audiences would like. And very, very arrogant of me. And I went to Arthur went to Uncle Arthur and said, Arthur, I now am a camera, man. But would you let me produce a picture? And he said, why not. And that picture became great expectations. But it seems to me that that's not a bad place to finish.

Roy Fowler 1  1:51:36  

Well, now, what we haven't yet done is the growing association with with Uncle Arthur, and the inception of independent producers. So that should be part presumably where we pick up well,

Ronald Neame  1:51:51  

the inception of independent producers really started with this happy breed. Because from the that's when we joined independent producers, and even though if you say this happy breed was a 260 film, which it probably was, it was still a ranked distribution film. And I think that blys spirit, I don't know whether that was still two cities.

Roy Fowler 1  1:52:16  

I think it was I tell you what, I look it up tonight. Yes. But I believe it was

Ronald Neame  1:52:23  

it may have been but it was it was the the last one was because great expectation. Oh, now whilst I was in America, Tony and David, were preparing briefing counter. And when I came back from America brief encounter was in in early preparation. Yes.

Roy Fowler 1  1:52:47  

And that definitely is cynical jail for

Ronald Neame  1:52:51  

rancor. Yes. That's right.

Roy Fowler  1:52:54  

Well, as I say, I'll check the other two pictures.

Ronald Neame  1:52:56  

Okay, that credits.

Roy Fowler  1:52:59  

Right. So then 10 o'clock tomorrow morning? Yes.

Ronald Neame  1:53:01  

Now in case there's something dreadful happens, I think I've got your number.

Roy Fowler  1:53:06  

So write it down again.

Ronald Neame  1:53:10  

I'm sorry, if you feel I should go on a bit long.

Roy Fowler  1:53:14  

So resuming the interview on the fifth of September, a couple of things I looked up last night for the record and for your information. It was Sam Smith, Sam Smith, British lion. Absolutely right. And actually, it was major Sassoon who put up the front money for in which we serve. Oh, and then Columbia came in and then bowed out was as the budget went up and up and eventually came in at over a quarter of a million pounds.

Ronald Neame  1:53:45  

About that would be about the price. For firearms members assume that the time now come to think about it, and obviously put up a little bit of grant money, which had expired. By the time we were starting to shoot. And if I could, I didn't know Columbia, wherever involved. They

Roy Fowler 1  1:54:04  

thought it was gonna be 60,000 pounds, and then the budget escalated, but it is still used today. Dude, he went into it without any without

Ronald Neame  1:54:14  

any finance at all. And then Sam bailed him out. And I don't think Sam regretted it. But that's interesting. It's information that that I never did. I remember soon I'd forgotten about him. Now,

Roy Fowler 1  1:54:29  

the other point about this happy breed and blind spirit. They're listed as being two cities, twigs and gills. So obviously, there was some kind of CO production.

Ronald Neame  1:54:41  

I suppose we gave two cities a credit. Maybe we had made a sort of an arrangement with them. But I am right in saying that they were financed by rank went Wednesday. Oh, yes. Well, the two cities were that were at that time they joined up with rank. Yes, right.

Roy Fowler 1  1:55:01  

Right now we're in 1944. And it's a watershed for you in terms of your attitude to what you do. But I thought before we went into that, we might wrap up on dodici, whether or not there's anything more to be said about him and his lifestyle and how he came across her. Well, Dell,

Ronald Neame  1:55:21  

I think, was foolish to himself, in a way, he was really a great champion for us all that time, people are gone. So live, you thought he was splendid. And he could have taken, you know, a big salary. And he could have taken presumably a percentage in the pictures. But he opted for taking very, very big expenses. And he lived very lavishly, but he never seemed to get any money, real money out of the various projects that he launched. And when John Davis finally got him out, because John just didn't want him, he really didn't have much money, if any, and he went back to Italy. And then he became very religious, almost to the point of insanity. I mean, he God was going to bring him back in a big way, and everything's gonna be wonderful because God was taking care of him. But in fact, he never got back onto his feet again, and he died. And he, I think, two or three years later in Italy,

Roy Fowler  1:56:44  

in a monastery, I heard Oh, really?

Ronald Neame  1:56:47  

Yes. could well be because he, he, I had never thought of him as being a man that would become religious in any way. But obviously, something got him. And, and I think that it was a great shame. Because I think we all of us owe him a great deal. are owed him a great deal.

Roy Fowler 1  1:57:09  

Were you privy to the lifestyle at all? Did you see it in operation? They were fabulous party as

Ronald Neame  1:57:14  

well? Yes. We used to go out to his house. I've forgotten where it was now somewhere out in Buckinghamshire somewhere. And yes, he used to give very big parties. For a while he was very friendly. With was it great again. And certainly Vivian. And Larry, were always amongst the important guests that were there. And he lived very opulent life, indeed. But never, I think, took any really big money. It was big expenses. But other than that, I don't remember anything more. Except he. He was. He taught with a strong Italian accent. But he was a great staunch believer in British films, which he considered he was very much part of which was

Roy Fowler 1  1:58:20  

yesterday. Yeah, yes. Even my great contribution. Incidentally, about the religious mania thing someone was telling me the other day that Bernard miles ended up in exactly that way. Did you know No, I did in a nursing home and in a wheelchair going around the corridors in the middle of night announcing he was God?

Ronald Neame  1:58:37  

Isn't any extraordinary? Never heard that. How sad.

Roy Fowler  1:58:43  

Right? So could we then touch on the relationships at this time with Jay Arthur rank, who is assuming importance both in your professional lives and also in the British film industry?

Ronald Neame  1:58:56  

Well, Arthur, was quite determined to somehow rather break into that American market. He formed a distribution company in in America, in conjunction with United Artists, Arthur grim and go, I think I think there was a distribution company called Eagle lion. Yes, I seem to remember with Robert Young. And Arthur was quite determined that somehow rather he would get into the American market. And with that in mind, and with aiming our product, more towards that market, he sent me over to America. And my mandate was to first of all, introduce myself to the United Artists group in in New York. And from there to get to Hollywood where he had an a contractual arrangement I imagined he was distributing 20th Century Fox movies at that time here. So you had a very close relationship with Spiro skewers and, indeed with it with Darryl Zanuck and 20th Century Fox. And the plan was for me to go via New York to Los Angeles was very fortunate for me to because my mother had by this time, remarried, and it was living in Hollywood. And

Roy Fowler  2:00:37  

she married someone individually married.

Ronald Neame  2:00:42  

Somebody who was originally a stuntman, but became a makeup man, curly, curly, Batson. Nice, nice man. And he wasn't a member of the Union, he managed to become a member of the makeup uni and much later, but at this particular time, he just worked on independent non union pictures. And they lived there for 25 years, I suppose until he died of cancer. And then my mother came back to England. That's just an aside. But the trip to America, in itself was was fascinating because I was very well prepared for the trip by the Rank Organisation who booked me into a hotel that in Glasgow because we had to stay the night there. And then we went rather sort of incognito to two Greenwich, Greenwich Brennick. Where we were to board the Queen Elizabeth. She sailed from the north. In those days, she didn't sail from Southampton, because of the war situation and the U boats. And I arrived in this hotel in Glasgow and went to the bar and had a drink. And Nick got chatting with an American colonel who was on his way back on leave to America. And he had a it was very hard luck story, he told me of how he hadn't got a room in Hotel, which was absolutely full. And so I said, Well, look, I've got a room with two beds. And you're very, very be very glad for you to have half my room, if you would like and he was very, very grateful. And this had a payoff, which was, which happened the next day, because the next day we went on to the we were boarded the Elizabeth, to find that it had been turned into which indeed, we knew, but it had been turned into virtually into a troop ship. And every state room had at a minimum of 30 banks stacked up one above the other. And we had somewhere approaching 1000, American wounded. And we had around about 800 German prisoners of war. They used to put the German prisoners of war that they were going to evacuate over to Canada, and to North America. And they used to put on the on the Elizabeth or on the Mary, because they knew that Hitler would know that there were Germans abroad and that we were less likely to be torpedoed. And so the ship was absolutely jam packed. And I found myself in a very, very crowded, large cabin with God knows how many people and the American colonel found me and said, Look, I want to return the compliment. I have 30 banks all to myself in a state room. And you be very welcome to come and have 15 of my banks. And so I joined him and I had a wonderful trip to New York, we zigzag across the Atlantic, going very fast. But we still took the extra day, an extra day, over and above the normal trip. And I think my first arrival in New York was really one of the most exciting days of my life. There was a certain amount of guilt, by the way, Ed leaving war torn Britain with just as the V V twos were landing but to Come into New York to see that skyline and those skyscrapers, and later to see the lights to see the food everywhere to see the luxury everywhere after four years of blackout was really quite extraordinary. And I was able to go to the first night, not first night, the first few weeks of Oklahoma, Oklahoma, it just opened. And I went to the 21 Club and United Artists looked after me splendidly. And I thought this is the life you know,

Roy Fowler 1  2:05:35  

it isn't terribly important that was the ship still run by Cunard. And yes, provision, presumably in the States. And it must have been quite a change.

Ronald Neame  2:05:45  

The only thing was that we only had, we had breakfast. And then on the breakfast table, there was plenty of rows and butter and jam and all of that stuff. And we had to take a picnic lunch up on deck, and we had a picnic lunch, and then they gave us dinner, they just couldn't manage the two meals because the frankly, there were too many people born. And we there were certain times when we had to go below deck below the top decks, because the German prisoners of war would be given exercise. And at that time, we were kept away from them. And it was altogether fascinating voyage in many, many ways. But it has nothing to do of course with with filmmaking. I thought I would like to fly from New York to London, to Los Angeles. And at that time, the flight took, I think it was around about 12, between 12 and 13 hours. Because they stopped all the way across, there were five or six stops. And all the airlines were jam packed with VIPs. And an ordinary civilian like myself, it was very difficult to get a ticket to get a seat. But United Artists thought they had a great deal of influence in D, they had enough influence to get me a seat on a plane leaving at seven o'clock, I think one morning, and they gave me a little warning. They said Now look, the chances are that you they will try and bounce you off the plane. Because wherever you stopped, there's always liable to be VIPs and army officers coming aboard. And you could be taken off. But we have an arrangement with the airline said United Artists. If they say Mr. Nene, we've frayed we'll have to take you off. All you have to do is to say I have an orchid pass, and you will be left on the plane. And I thought well, this is splendid. So we come to the first stop, I forgotten where it was, but not more than three quarters of an hour's flight out of New York. And indeed somebody comes up the aisle and says Mr. Diem, and I said yes. I'm very sorry, sir. We're going to have to take you off. I said, Well, I happen to have an orchid pass. He said, Yes, sir. I know all about the orchid pass, we still are going to have to take you off. So instead of me being on my way to glamorous Hollywood, I found myself somewhere in some town, not very far away from New York. So I went into the airport, which was very small indeed. And I said, Is there any chance of getting another plane? I've just been bumped to Los Angeles, and they just laughed at me. They said no way. I said, Well, what do you suggest I do? So they said, Well, we suggest you take a train to Chicago. And I thought all right, well, how long will it take me? They said well, about eight hours. You should be in Chicago by six o'clock, seven o'clock this evening. And then we suggest that you go to the airport and see what the situation is. Well, I had this long train journey. But again, it was fascinating because I met up with American people and got into long discussions about the war and why America shouldn't have become involved and all of this and arrived in Chicago, got a taxi went to the airport up to the desk. Is there any chance of a plane to Los Angeles tonight? Again, they laughed at me No way. They said I said, Well, can I get any work? Can I get out of here to anywhere on the way? So they said, well just just go and sit down over there. And we'll, you may have to wait two or three hours. But if something comes along, that we can give you, we'll we'll do that. So I waited, I think about three hours. And then I was called over to the desk and they said, Well, look, the best we can do for you is, we can get you to Kansas City. So I thought, well, Kansas City at least halfway there. So spended, I called on the plane to Kansas City, and I arrived there at four o'clock in the morning. Again, I got to the desk, is there any chance of a plane to Los Angeles, no charts at all? I said, Well, can you tell me Was there a hotel reasonably near to the airport? There are no, there's no hotel that is not absolutely full was not not a way of you getting a room. And I thought there was an earth am I going to do and just at that moment of a very smart looking woman in a uniform, came striding up to the desk. And she'd heard me say, is there a room somewhere I can get? And she said, Are you looking for a room in a hotel? I said, Yes. She said, Well, I've just left one. I've left the such and such a hotel. Why didn't you go along there, they can't rent the room to anybody else tonight. And just say that, I said that you could have my room for the rest of the night. So I thought, well, that's very nice. I thank you very much. Indeed, I got a taxi and learn Behold, I got a room. Well, believe it or not, I was three days in Kansas City, waiting for a play, to take me to Los Angeles. And in the end, I took the train. And it took me another three days to get there. So it took me 10 days to get from New York to Los Angeles. Well, of course, when I arrived there it was. I was treated with tremendous respect by the people at 20th Century Fox, who gave me an office on their lot, which of course is now Century City, because it's no longer there. Their lot because they had to sell it because of spending too much money and Cleopatra. But anyway, they gave me an office and they said, We you'd like a secretary, of course. And I said, Well, that would be nice. Because I have to give her a report a weekly report to Arthur rank. So they said fine, we'll give you a secretary starting tomorrow morning, do you like blondes or brunettes? And as a joke, I said, Well, as a matter of fact, I rather like redheads. And they laughed and the next morning learn behold sitting behind the secretary's desk was a redhead. She also happened to have a car, which I didn't. And so I was really very well taken care of. I spent the next five or six weeks visit visiting all the studios including MGM, Paramount and Columbia. I went on all the sets, met up with people at Gregory Randolph, who at that time was a very important director there. I met up with Lubitsch, who was producing Greer Garson was making a picture and she was charming to me, I met up with a camera man in particular with Henry Harry Stradling and Leon Shem Roy and Charlie Rocha, who had adopted me and I talked to the camera man's to the woods now the ASC about the possibilities as soon as the war was over, of having an interchange of of camera men because at this time, no British cameraman could work in America. The Union restrictions the UFC were too strong and quite determined not to have any British over there.

Roy Fowler 1  2:14:23  

On the west coast. Well, still tough to get not too

Ronald Neame  2:14:27  

bad. A top camera man can can usually get a temporary ticket and I mean, Arthur Ibbotson came over with me and federal you have to picture Ozzie Morris photographed several films

Roy Fowler  2:14:41  

on the west coast on the East Coast,

Ronald Neame  2:14:45  

now on the West Coast also, but it's still tough, but I was very well received by the senior cameraman who thought that it would be a splendid idea to have an interchange but the rain can file when you got down to the operators the assistance? They were more wary. It isn't really film. Oh,

Roy Fowler 1  2:15:12  

no, I think it rounds it out, you know, sites that otherwise we wouldn't get, and especially the condition in Hollywood in the middle of the war. Yes. But what about the British colony out? Because a lot of them had what Gone With the Wind up I think was the expression was sitting?

Ronald Neame  2:15:33  

Well, yes there there. Of course a lot of the British had moved over there. I remember that. Robert Stevenson was there who had been a director at Ealing. And I've worked with for him on several pictures and photographed his wife, Anna Lee. They were out there and I would have liked to have stayed in England. But Bob Stevenson wanted to go to Hollywood. And indeed, he became very successful. He became one of Disney's top directors, and I think directed Mary Poppins much later on, and he did it very profitably. Yes. And yes, I make quite a few of the of the of the British, as I say, including Greg godson and went to dinner with Alfred Hitchcock's home. And he was extremely nice to me and very, very friendly. The there was a tremendous activity. There was the Stage Door Canteen, as they call it, where they they all the various different stars, entertain troops, the troops. And then they organised concert tours to the to the war zones and an enormous amount of films were being made. I think there were at least five pictures on the floor of 20th Century Fox. And the same applies to all the studios. I see. I remember I met very briefly, Judy Garland, who was making under the clock with Vincent Minelli directing. That was her husband. I mentioned Judy here because later up, excuse me later on in the saga, there is a lot to be said about Judy, later on. And altogether I had of a really splendid few weeks. Now one of my jobs apart from having to Make careful note of all the equipment that was making the Hollywood Studios efficient, anything that we could that I could see I made recorded that's off so that we could bring ourselves up to date when I got back to England, but one of the most important things was that we had no cameras, no studio cameras at all? Well, we did. We had one or two Vinton cameras. And I think there were a couple of Mitchell's so I went to see the Mitchell people and said that Arthur Aang was needing few cameras, four or five cameras? And would it be possible to have Mitchell cameras from them and pay in sterling? Because there was no way we could export? We could we could not spend dollars at that time. And the Metro camera company were not very helpful. They were very polite to me and very nice to me. But they said that there was no way that they would sell their cameras except for dollars. And they also were insistent upon having a full screen credit photograph with the miracle Mitchell camera, which I thought was going a bit far. And then I found out that the Mitchell camera company did not have a copyright in Britain in England. They they had no copyright patent patent in in this country. And I did what I suppose was a terrible thing really, because when I came back to England, I found out about a very small precision engineering company called Newell. And I asked Arthur ranks permission I said look, we can't buy Mitchell's but it's just possible we could make Mitchell's because they have no Have no patent. So I went to see the new people the head of the new engineering company somewhere in the Midlands and showed him a Mitchell. He said, Yes, we could make we could make that. But he said it wouldn't be worth our while to tool up, unless you made an order of 50 cameras. Are we talking

Roy Fowler 1  2:20:23  

the MC or the BNC? The BNC MC.

Ronald Neame  2:20:27  

And so I said 50. So he's Yes, that's, that's the only way that it would pay us to set up a plug to make the camera. So I went to Arthur, who only wanted six cameras at the most. And I said, Arthur, we can get the equivalent of a Mitchell, but we need to order 50. And he said, Ronny, order 50. And so I put in the order for 50. New all cameras. And there are still those cameras are still around today, here and there. Yes. And they literally saved the situation. But of course, the Mitchell camera company hated me. I mean, they could they they're willing to shot me in the back.

Roy Fowler 1  2:21:15  

I think there's a great feather in your cap. Well, it

Ronald Neame  2:21:18  

was absolutely necessary. I mean, if Mitchell had been, you know, been prepared to accept Sterling, and kept their money here until it until it was released. What they wouldn't have been a problem. But it was it. They were never quite as good as the Mitchell. But it wasn't a bad camera, and we use them on many films. Now, I don't know whether there's anything more to be said about America.

Roy Fowler 1  2:21:54  

Well, what were the recommendations you made to rank based on that trip? What were the well, methods that you discerned that were not operating here and should

Ronald Neame  2:22:07  

just start off with there was the freedom of work over there the lack of restrictions, as on the part of the unions. I mean, we had always we had to break exactly at one o'clock. Even if we were in the middle of which shot you couldn't run to help us one called the two. So you always had to break for lunch at one. And therefore you wasted a lot of time because when you came back after lunch, the whole momentum had dropped. Whereas in America, you could break for lunch at midday 12 If you wanted to 1231 32 there was no restriction on how late you worked. But of course it cost money, it cost overtime and golden hours. And so one of my strong recommendations was that management and union must get together and find a more efficient way to operate the working day. But I'm afraid that we didn't get very far because the studio management were very narrow minded and weren't prepared to concede anything to the unions and to the AC T in particular. And the tea you particularly was were very rigid about the time we mentioned this the other day a little bit. But then there were all kinds of sweat what seemed to be small things but very important at the time. You could they had jacks that you could just push down a handle and lift up a flat and move it away from the set. Two men could could could take a great big flat away when you have to strike it's to get a good get the right camera angle, whereas with us to take out a flat you had to pull out about 20 nails and and you had to have six men that heavy gang come in and the whole thing was so cumbersome. And there were there were all kinds of suggestions like that. Of course the lighting equipment, we at that time had very very few male Richardson lights and they the whole of their lighting equipment was far superior to us and rang understood and appreciated this and I think very shortly after that, Mo Richardson started up factory in in in went and made more Richardson lamps over here.

Roy Fowler  2:25:03  

The pre war lights in this country had they been imported or were the manufacturers

Ronald Neame  2:25:07  

you know most of them are manufactured here we did have a few more riches at Ealing. I think I had half a dozen two K's two kilowatt. And I used to take these this half 1000 lamp, I used to have them wherever I, as soon as I moved from one set to another, I take my six mo Richardson's because they were far and away ahead of the of the lights that we were making and using sort of

Roy Fowler 1  2:25:34  

on that same subject. Am I right in remembering that one of the cameras at Ealing had come over from RKO Radio in the early 30s? And was still in use? Is that something?

Ronald Neame  2:25:47  

I can't remember, but I would think it's highly possible. We, we certainly were pretty old fashioned when it came to equipment, there's no doubt about it. Although, of course, we did have the technical, three strip Technicolor cameras. And that was fortunate.

Roy Fowler 1  2:26:07  

And the quality of Technicolor was was better here, I think, yes,

Ronald Neame  2:26:12  

I think it I think it probably was. But it was I'm not sure to how important that the trip was for the rank organisation. But it was very, very important to me. And I got to know, I spent a lot of time. And I began to realise that we were saying in England, of course America don't want our films, the American distributor doesn't want to know about British films. But of course, the truth of the matter was that the Americans that time did not understand British films. They they first of all, couldn't understand our clipped accent. And they certainly couldn't understand cockney or North Country. And it was very, very difficult to sell a British film to a big American audience. And we always we were a bit, I think we're a little unfair in the way we accused the American distributor of not trying to push our product, I think they would have liked to have helped. But nobody wants to see British films. And Arthur. Although he tried very, very hard indeed, except for a few exceptions, and count great expectations as one of the exceptions. Except for a few exceptions. He never broke through. He never got into that market, although he spent a fortune trying to get in. But the sad and rather ironic thing was that several years later, after Arthur had given up or thought of breaking into the market, and after the rank organisation had stopped making films. The advent of television and the enormous demand for material meant that the British films although they couldn't get a theatrical release, more and more they were shown on television. And more and more of the American public began to understand British films and began to realise that that they were could be entertaining for them. And so in a kind of a way, what Arthur tried to do and failed to do, sort of happened by itself, because of the demand that television created. But at the time, I came back from America Arthur was highly optimistic. We had just formed the independent producer group, which was formed just before I left and

Roy Fowler 1  2:29:23  

could could we talk about that how it came to be incepted actually, we've not really talked to that forming snuggled how you all got together, or was it? Well, it was

Ronald Neame  2:29:34  

it was just Tony David and I, we found that we got on very well together. And we didn't just want to make cat pictures. And we didn't want to be under the permanent auspices of of either delta G really or indeed anybody else. We want it to be our own little entity. And Arthur had already said to us for himself and said, Look, you boys, you know, we want you to make some good pictures for us.

Roy Fowler 1  2:30:12  

When did you begin to have direct contact with with Rank?

Ronald Neame  2:30:18  

With Arthur, it must have been during, I guess during this happy brief,

Roy Fowler 1  2:30:24  

yes. This is probably a silly question. But was there any sense of deference to him his, his wealth and his power?

Ronald Neame  2:30:31  

We found him such a warm, friendly, man, easy and relaxed. And when we all sort of migrated towards him and either either people either worked for Korda which you say he didn't do too well didn't start till much later.

Roy Fowler 1  2:30:57  

He came back in 43. But he didn't shoot anything. For 44 years. He was in partnership with MGM British, if you remember. Yes,

Ronald Neame  2:31:06  

that's right. And Gertz that Ben gets That's right. But anyway, most most of us migrated automatically towards Arthur because he had the he had denim studios, and then later he had Pinewood Studios. And

Roy Fowler  2:31:24  

Davis is still at Odeon theatre is presumed Well,

Ronald Neame  2:31:27  

Davis was was the chief accountant for the rank organised.

Roy Fowler 1  2:31:30  

So he's gotten to these the central organising by this time.

Ronald Neame  2:31:35  

And because we were all young filmmakers together, Frank, Lorna, and Sydney, and we were all keen Mickey Powell Emmeric, we decided through the Rank Organisation, and with the collaboration of Arthur rank, we decided to form a loose partnership. And I think at one time, there must have been a dozen of us that would sit around the board table. With Arthur, as our chairman and the head, he was very much hands on very much hands on in the sense that he was he wanted very, very much to support us in making some good films that he could sell in America,

Roy Fowler  2:32:25  

what was the limits of your independence, if

Ronald Neame  2:32:27  

any, practically no limits. Were and you can see what I mean by by giving an example. When I got back from America, I went to see him. And he was always available to us. You never had to feel it? Oh, well, I'll give you an hour. Next week or whatever. I could phone Arthur and go down to Reigate to his home and see him if I wanted to, indeed, all of us could, he was completely accessible to us. And I simply said to him, I came back and I said, you know, Arthur, I've learned a lot about America just in these few weeks, I've got to know a lot of Americans, I like them very much. And I know that I'm first and foremost a camera man, but I have over the last two or three years been very much more than than just a cameraman have been very much part of the management of of filmmaking. I've taken an active part in the preparation of the film in the, in the screenplay with David. And, and are to a great extent being a producing element. But I said what I would really like to do, I would like you to give me the okay to produce a film. And I think I could produce a film that might appeal to American audiences, which was pretty arrogant of me, really. But Arthur said that fine with me, Ronnie, what do you wanted to make? I said, Well, I'm not sure yet. Because I haven't had time. But I said what I would like is, I would like to see if I can persuade David, whose camera man I've been on the last two pictures. I'd like to persuade David to direct a film and for me to be the producer on it. And he said, Well, alright, at CSUN come back and see me when you decided what you would like to do, you know, and he had a very north north country accent. And so I went to David and I said, David, look, I'd love to produce a picture. Would you consider directing it if I produced it? That not and was not the cameraman on it? And David said, Well, I Yes. He said, I think it might be fun. What should we make? And we decided that we would try and find a subject. And I very strongly put the emphasis on the fact that we should try and make something that could be international. And it just so happened that we had both seen in London, a production, a theatrical production of Great Expectations, which was directed or produced, whichever you call it on the stage, that time by Alec Guinness, who also played in the on the stage was also in the show. And Martita Hunt was Lady Hamilton, which was one of the most important characters in great expectations. And I think it must have been David said, What about great expectations? And I said, Well, I'm gonna reread it. And, you know, Dickens really was perfect screen material, particularly that one and one or two others, because all the dialogue was there. Because when Charles Dickens wrote those, those books, which were written in instalments, week by week, for a magazine, he was very careful about his dialogue, because he used to do readings, himself. And so all his dialogue was written with the knowledge that it would be spoken aloud. And his dialogue was, was perfect dialogue for for the screen. We, I went to back to Arthur and I say, well, Arthur, we've made up our mind with David is agreed he will direct it. And we'd like to make great expectations. Well, that sounds alright, so as Arthur, go and make it. And he said, Ask the accounts, make certain that you know, there isn't enough money, don't spend too much, actually great expectation cost? I think I'm right in saying about 350,000 pounds, somewhere in that area. But there was never any question of it's too expensive. Or, nor was there any kind of, well, you'll have to have a star name or, you know, nobody. We just did it the way we wanted to did it, do it. We were absolutely autonomous. We were our own bosses. And we did exactly what we wanted. Now,

Roy Fowler 1  2:37:52  

how did the various units operate within independent producers independent producers was a central organisation for what? Well,

Ronald Neame  2:38:01  

it was. We used to have a monthly meeting, and sometimes more often if it was needed, board meeting that we all sat around the table. And we all discussed the various projects that we wanted to do. And because we wanted to have some kind of a balanced program, and there wasn't much. There wasn't a great problem really, because all all the various components of independent producers were interested in different kinds of films. Sidney and Frank were specifically interested in comedy. And Mickey Powell and Emeric Pressburger, were were different from us. They were interested to a great extent in original stories written by Emeric although they did occasionally make something from a written work already written work. We almost invariably went for either a play or a novel. And we will discuss our various plans. And a little later when the the the the operation became bigger. Arthur suggested George Archibald, who became Lord George Archibald,

Roy Fowler  2:39:32  

because Tom Sloane had been there before hadn't he?

Ronald Neame  2:39:37  

Wasn't Thompson now? There was Tom there was Tom White. Think he was white? Who was it? Who remained with us? He was sort of. He was in sort of executive Production Manager for all of us. Now,

Roy Fowler 1  2:39:54  

what's the relationship? First of all, let me ask. The other units had no power of veto Are you ready to other scripts presumably, and we didn't really even friendly comment No,

Ronald Neame  2:40:05  

if we wanted it. They were there was only one occasion when there was a problem. And that was when both Frank and Sidney and we wanted to make the Blue Lagoon. And I think that we had to sort of go to arbitration in a way amongst us all. And I think it was given to Frank and Sidney, because it was considered that they had thought about it first. So

Roy Fowler 1  2:40:34  

they're constipated movie. Trouble was, didn't they on that? Yes, they did. Right. So was the other question then was a production facilities forms that was formed to service? Was it all the rank companies or? Well,

Ronald Neame  2:40:54  

I'm not sure when production facilities

Roy Fowler 1  2:40:57  

was for? I think it was, by default? It was cool.

Ronald Neame  2:41:00  

But wasn't that much later?

Roy Fowler 1  2:41:02  

I don't know. I mean, chronologically, I'm fumbling.

Ronald Neame  2:41:06  

I seem to think that that was, much later when, when, after the collapse really. Then URLs, and John was put in charge Pinewood. And I think that, that, that was when we started, but I may be wrong for you all right, may have existed before. But we, we were never aware of that. What we were aware of growing more and more of an irritant to us, was John Davis, who would come in with the books and would say, well, Arthur, we are spending too much money. And the film's are not earning as much as they should.

Roy Fowler 1  2:41:52  

So this was what post event in terms of a film was their cost accounting that they? Oh, yes,

Ronald Neame  2:41:58  

we I mean that the whole thing was was was very efficient. They budgeted in the schedule. But there was no, I mean, if we went over, if we went over a week or 10 days, nobody worried too much. And if the money was we spent, rather than more than we'd said, Nobody worried very much, except for John Davis. And John Davis kept on pointing out to Arthur, that the films were costing too much. And Arthur would say don't disheartened the boys, John, don't dishearten them, let them let them go on the way they're going on. They're making some good films for us. Now. It's up to us to sell them. I mean, that was his kind of attitude at that time. But he did suggest on several occasions that John Davis should join the board of independent producers. And we all very vehemently said we didn't want him. And I guess we were scared that he would tip our wings, which of course, he eventually did.

Roy Fowler 1  2:43:01  

At some stage, we have to talk about him at whatever length it needs is another time or later, maybe at the time of the collapse.

Ronald Neame  2:43:08  

Well, yes, maybe the time that collapse is better. Because at this particular time, when particularly justice, I came back from America, wherever but we were all of us, re gung ho about everything the world was coming to an end. And it all looked very promising. And indeed, thinking back we never thought for one moment, it wouldn't go on for all our lives. You know, I mean, we seem to be set into a pattern of filmmaking that would be never ending the glory years provided we could find the subjects to make we, we felt this, this could this will just go on forever. And it did go on for quite a long time. Now. With great expectations, and I was going to talk more but oh yeah,

Roy Fowler  2:44:02  

we've kind of skipped over a Brief Encounter. We're

Ronald Neame  2:44:06  

now breathing counter came first. What happened was this whilst I was in America, first script was made on briefing counter. When I got back from America, I worked with David on the second draft, a brief encounter. And as a result of that, and myself as green, our joint screenplay credit, and I think Tony Havelock Allen also had joint screenplay credit. The three of us used to work on our scripts together. It was really very interesting the way it worked. David and I would, would spend all day on the screenplay starting from page one. And then in the evening, Tony would join us. And we would read what we'd written to Tony. And then Tony would give his input, which was always very helpful. And so there was a it was a threesome. And I remember we used to, we used to operate on the basis that if two of us thought that something was right or something was wrong, the third one would say, Okay, it's two to one, I concede to you, you know, it was it was a very, very good arrangement,

Roy Fowler  2:45:39  

where their respective strengths among the three of you in terms of the kind of contribution, the style of contribution construction dialogue.

Ronald Neame  2:45:51  

Now we came out of I mean, in the case of brief encounter, now card had quite a lot to do with it. We would, we, we know, didn't know anything about construction of a screenplay as such. And the construction came from us. And in the case, A Brief Encounter, it came from David more than than anybody else, because I was in America. And I don't know whether Tony was full time with David. But the first script was primarily David,

Roy Fowler 1  2:46:29  

he's very big on flashbacks then wasn't, well, yes, we serve and briefing. And

Ronald Neame  2:46:33  

it was a very good way of telling briefing counter to put it in the frame that he put it into. But what happened was that we then made that was the first script, where then we made a second script, which was very much more developed. And by now we had worked with no so for such a long time, really, that we began to be able to write, like now. And I remember writing one small scene between Trevor and Celia, that that I, I wrote, and we always used to go up to see father as we called him, because no lack to be called Father. And we would read to him what we've written, and, and in some cases, asked him to write scenes for us. But I remember going up once to see you know, and giving him a scene and we said, look, no, we thought this is, you know, the kind of thing that's needed. And then No, is a an, which of my three little darlings wrote this brilliant coward dialogue. And then we did get, we began to know how to write coward dialogue. And then now and again, we'd say, well, look, we need a scene here, though, that does this. And he'd say, get out your little pencils. And we'd get out our little pencils. And literally, he would walk up and down the room and out but come the dialog, which would you which was easy for him? It just, it just happened. He he wrote, he was very proud of the fact that he'd written blood spirit in three days. But of course, as he said to me, once I wrote it in three days, run it, but it was a lifetime. It was a lifetime's work, in fact, because I called upon my experience. And although I wrote it down in three days, it was a lot more than that. And so, brief encounter was was in preparation, when David and I decided that the following brief encounter, we wanted to get away from the very strong influence of Noah and do something apart from him. We were very, very friendly with him. But we didn't want to go on indefinitely, making no card players, particularly as of course, they were all no car productions. And David was already beginning to feel that he wanted to do something apart from No. Now we brought in a writer to do the screenplay of Great Expectations, because quite frankly, we didn't think we were capable of doing it. We weren't writers. Either of us or another with was Tony. So we brought in a lady writer who was steeped in the classics called Clemens Dane. And she wrote us a screenplay which was, I'm afraid very, very bad indeed. It was so bad that we do First, we just didn't use any of it. And then David and I started to read the book through again together. And we realized that, really and truly, the screenplay was already there. Within those pages. The problem was that Dickens had so many characters, all of them wonderful that in order to do them justice, you would have had to have made a five hour film. And we wanted the film to be approximately two hours. Now we'd seen one or two films made from Dickens, previous films. And they all tried to hang on to all the characters. And the result was that they didn't do justice to any one character, there were too many. And we decided to be completely ruthless. We decided that much as it would go against the grain and maybe much as we would be criticised, we decided to drop at least 50% of the characters if not more, to drop some of the complications of the story. And to then give to the characters that we retained sufficient screen time and sufficient dialogue, so that we had really good strong characters and really good strong characterisation. Now what happened was this David Lean, who was then married to Kay Walsh, and myself, married to my wife to Barrow, we, the four of us went down to a seaside town small seaside town near Falmouth, I forgotten the name of the town. And we, David and I would sit in a small bedroom, in the hotel all day long, whilst the girls went out on the beach, or went out shopping, and David and I literally took the book, and we underlined everything that we wanted, which we felt we could keep as a film, at the same time, making a one line continuity of the story. And we had a first draft screenplay of great expectations in two weeks. And we went back to London. And then David got caught up in brief encounter. And Tony was primarily the producer of brief encounter. Although I think we all three of us had a title in charge of production or something like that. But I did not go on the location Brief Encounter, because all the time that brief encounter was being made. I was busy. Working on Great Expectations.

Roy Fowler  2:53:14  

Did you ever photograph and other film after this?

Ronald Neame  2:53:17  

Blind spirit was the last film that I photographed. And I honestly don't think that I see, blood spirit was in colour. But we decided that great expectations should be in black and white. It seemed much more suitable. And I had got so used to the amount of light used on slide spirit, that I was really quite scared, I thought I will never be able to photograph a picture in black and white again. I really was quite scared. So I thought, well, I better become a producer.

Roy Fowler 1  2:53:50  

Do I have any regrets? No,

Ronald Neame  2:53:54  

I really didn't. I had been a cameraman for I suppose 15 years or something like that. And it I was still very young, because I was a lighting cameraman at the age of 22. I think. And so I thought well, I'm now any I think that was the T 3534. I forgotten somewhere in the very, very early 30s. Well, if I was born in 1911, and great expectations is 1946. Was it?

Roy Fowler  2:54:30  

Yes, yes. Briefing down was 45.

Ronald Neame  2:54:37  

And so I had no regrets. We when we finally got the finished script of Great Expectations, we of course went to attic. But attic was in the Navy. And he was we had to pull every conceivable string to get Alec extended leave to enable him to play the part. And I was really instrumental more than any of the others in doing a good producer job of managing to get Alec out of the Navy for long enough to make the film. And Atticus always been very grateful to me for that, because that started out on his career really in films. Yes. And he always is always remembered that he's always said Ronny, you know, I can never ever thank you enough for the way you you helped me in my career. He's been very generous to me in that way. And then of course, subsequently, I made a lot more pictures with him.

Roy Fowler  2:55:38  

But it wasn't quite remarkable debut. Yes, it really was surely one and yes, it really was.

Ronald Neame  2:55:44  

And then of course, we cast Martita hand because there was nobody else that could be as good as her. And Francis Sullivan and Larry and we Yes, and we got a really good cast together. We,

Roy Fowler  2:56:03  

Simmons had done what Gene

Ronald Neame  2:56:06  

Simmons had done, I forgotten not not very much. I photographed I not photograph I directed her test, first test she did for great expectations. We've often thought since that, what a pity that she hadn't been just four years older, because if she hadn't been we could have made a young enough to play the young G or the young Estella going all the way through and gone all the way through, because when you change, you know, change from one actor to another actor, it that it isn't let down always, no matter how good the second one may be. We had great difficulty in finding the young man, the young actor Pip. And what we did was we made a trailer, we'd cast Johnny Mills as the grownup Pip. And we made a trailer with Johnny appealing to the audience, to see if they could find for us, a young man to play him as a young man. And it was this trailer was shown at all the Uk theatres. And of course, we had 1000s, of of responses. And part of my job with the casting department was to sift these out and narrow it down. And the casting department soiled literally hundreds of kids, we'd have girls pretending to be dressing up as boys pretending they were boys. And but finally, it was narrowed down to about 10. And I saw those 10. And it immediately became very clear that one young man, Tony wager, was the right one. He had never done any acting. He was the son of a plumber, lived in Mill Hill. And he was obviously right. That I was a little anxious, because you, you know, you when you put a young kid, he was what 12 into a big part on the screen, you know that he's gonna get bitten by the idea of being an actor. And this is sort of you one has a sense of responsibility about this. And I remember seeing his parents and saying their look, you do understand about this, what's going to happen because your son is going to want to go on acting in films. And they said, Well, we do know that but we would be very happy to if he played the part. And he did want to go on and he did act in several other pictures, but he never became anything in career. No career at all.

Roy Fowler  2:59:18  

Let me go on to another tape Ronnie.

End of Part 2

Ronald Neame Part 3

Roy Fowler  0:00  

Ronnie Neame Tape five, yes, so and tape not take.

Ronald Neame  0:05  

So Tony Wager.  Tape five.  Tony Wager  was cast. And away we went. Whilst we were on a - Well first of all, we chose Bob Krasker to be the camera man. But Bob Krasker somehow was not all that happy or at home with the type of lighting that was required for  “Great Expectations”, which was rather strong contrast, real light and shade.

Roy Fowler  0:47  

But had Lean done  that on " “Brief Encounter”" ? 

Ronald Neame  0:51  

No  “Brief Encounter” was a different feeling altogether it was, it was a softer feeling. And did  Bob Krasker photograph  “Brief Encounter”?

Roy Fowler  1:05  

 I think so. 

Ronald Neame  1:07  

Because I've  forgotten. 

Roy Fowler  1:08  

Pretty sure he  did. 

Ronald Neame  1:08  

Yes I think he did, too. Anyway, we chose Bob Krasker  but the.  David was not very happy with the result. And I had to do something which I absolutely hated doing was awful thing to have to do. I had to be the one responsible for telling Bob that we felt that he wasn't right for the film. I, I felt awful at doing it. And yet, I knew I had to do it, because the film has to come first. You can't you know, because you can't be soft hearted. And, you know, spoil the film for something like that

Roy Fowler  1:48  

It can be absolutely soul shaking. 

Ronald Neame  1:50  

Oh it's a terrible thing to have to do. And thank goodness, it didn't affect Bob Krasker's  career in any way. And I had been very impressed with with Guy Green. Because Guy Green had at one time been operated, been operating camera for me when I was lighting. And he I think was working with Carol Reed at this particular moment on his, I think got his first picture as a lighting cameraman or maybe second picture. And so I suggested to David that Guy was the right person for him. And indeed, Guy became the cameraman and did a wonderful job. The other thing that was exceptional in amongst other things, one of the exceptional things was John Bryan's designs, the sets, which were all built in perspective, which gave them a very special kind of look. But they were it was very, very expensive. They were very expensive sets. And John was a perfectionist, wonderful man, wonderful designer. And I always remember to this day, the sets, “Great Expectations”, they were absolutely beautiful. And it all went reasonably well until we had this we had a big location on the Rochester marshes. And there was a big sequence on the river on the Thames, where they roll the convict out to the paddle steamer to help him to escape. The paddle steamer causes production itself because I had to get a ship from somewhere around off the coast of Wales, which was brought round because it was the nearest that we could get. But we had to build the paddles and we had to spend a lot of money on the ship. And on the ferry boat or, or the packet boat. Yes. But anyway, they started shooting this sequence in lovely sunny weather in a calm, calm river. And halfway through the sequence, the sun went in. The wind came up and the Thames looked like the English Channel. And for three days, the unit set on their backsides doing nothing. And I began to get nervous even in all right. Well, they didn't. They didn't shoot us if we went behind scheduled but it was beginning to get serious. And I remember saying to David Look David I have Feeling that you should begin to sequence again, in this weather. And I remember it was the first time that David and I really had any kind of an argument. He said, I can't start the sequence all over again, right from the beginning. I said, Well, David, supposing this weather goes on for two weeks with you, we've got half sequence. And you know, we may never get the other half, because just the river just didn't match. So very grudgingly, David said, Alright, so they started to shoot the sequence again, in rough weather. And of course, at the end of three more days, we had two halves of the sequence, one in good weather and one in bandwidth. So you could go either way, we could go either way. And in fact, we went with the bad weather, because it stayed and it remained. But during the location, briefing counter was completed, the dubbing, and music and everything was, was complete. And we decided to have a preview of  “Brief Encounter” in a theatre in Rochester because we were on location in Rochester. And we went to this preview, with our fingers crossed, hoping it would be successful. 

Roy Fowler  6:21  

This was what a show print or ? 

Ronald Neame  6:23  

Yes, it was the first print. And the film started. And as you know, it's a very sensitive love story. And around about five minutes into the film, a woman in the fourth row of the stalls, laughed. And ha ha ha, and of course, was a big success, because everybody else laughed. Well, she was so pleased with the attention she was causing that every time anything a little bit sensitive came up, she would go, Oh, ha ha, ha. And everybody joined in and they sent the film up. They absolutely sent it up. And of course, we'd issued cards. And people, the cards came back, what a piece of rubbish, what tripe, all this kind of thing. And David and I were and Tony, because he came down for it. We were absolutely heart broken. We were convinced we had an utter disaster in  “Brief Encounter”. And poor David had to get back, you know, on the set the next day and be enthusiastic about “Great Expectations”, having just seen this dreadful show of  “Brief Encounter”. However, thank God when it was shown  into a sophisticated audience in the West End, the the result was very, very different.

Roy Fowler 1  7:54  

I remember the pressure very clearly, I've never seen so many choked up people in my life.

Ronald Neame  7:58  

Yes. made people cry. But I bet you wouldn't believe it possible that it could be sent up like it was.

Roy Fowler  8:06  

Will that woman probably had a long distinguished career at the BBC on laughter track.

Ronald Neame  8:10  

Yes. could well be.

Roy Fowler  8:12  

Oh, it's heartbreaking. You're in the hands. Oh, yeah.

Ronald Neame  8:17  

But I didn't know. I mean, I could of course, I'm sure I could go on talking about “Great Expectations” for a long time because it was a great big landmark in in my life.

Roy Fowler  8:29  

It's one of the major achievements in the British film industry, too. It's a lovely film. 

Ronald Neame  8:34  

And still holds up today. So extraordinary. Yes. But the we  had several people working on the screenplay, by the way, I've we did the original first one David and I  but we always had trouble with the end. We could never find a proper ending. And indeed, Dickens never found a proper ending. You know, as I told you, he used to write for a magazine and he had to wrap it all up. He was against deadlines. Yes, he was against deadlines. And then when it came to, I suppose the end of the Christmas time, no matter where he was with his complicated plot, he had to wrap it up in in a couple of instalments,  and end it. And so it was really very unsatisfactory. And Kay Walsh, who isn't really a writer, but is a very bright girl indeed. When we were really we didn't know what to do with the end. She said "Would you let me have a go at writing the end? Because I think I've got an idea." And we said, "Be our guest we'd love you to do it. "And she wrote the end and we gave her a screen credit for additional dialogue by Kay Walsh. And, but then there was some other fella who eventually became head of drama at the BBC. His name I forgotten for a moment. He did a bit of work on it. And he had a credit I

Roy Fowler  10:09  

McGibbon  would that  have been by any chance, yes, he was moving into. - 

Ronald Neame  10:12  

Cecil McGibbon . Who, who sadly used to smoke in bed and   set himself alight and died a year or two later.

Roy Fowler  10:22  

 But he, I was so close to Cecil, He was my first boss in effect, and he had more or less destroyed himself I think with drink. 

Ronald Neame  10:33  

Nice man. Indeed. Yes. And but it's amazing how many people that you remember, that's really surprising.

Roy Fowler  10:42  

Well, if I'd had my way I would have been a part of it. But it turned out differently. And I suppose it was the collapse. I took myself off. But talking about  “Great Expectations”. does raise a point about the production. Most of it is studio based, is it not? Yes. And I was curious, having just come back from the States comparing working practices here, efficiency at Denham with what was going on on the major lots in Hollywood at that time? 

Ronald Neame  11:11  

Well we were beginning to get more efficient. And I would have, I would say that  “Great Expectations” was a very well run production. From everybody's point of view.

Roy Fowler  11:25  

 And  cooperation from the studio. Yes. ,

Ronald Neame  11:29  

I would say so. It was a happy experience for all concerned 

Roy Fowler  11:33  

No problems with the Works Committee?

Ronald Neame  11:35  

None at all. I mean, the whole thing was beginning to sort itself out the days when management were violently opposed to, to labour and vice versa were going

Roy Fowler  11:53  

Your anecdote of  “Brief Encounter” makes me ask were there any people from South Street in the audience in Rochester? That that night when you pray?

Ronald Neame  12:01  

I don't think so. In those days, nobody from South Street ever came near us really you know, I mean, that when nobody saw any of our film until till we delivered it, nobody saw our rushes or anything like that. Now and again, maybe? Well, there was just I say, there was Tom White, I'm sure his name was Tom  White, who was a sort of overall supervising Production Manager for all of the not just Cine Guild, but for all of the independent producers. But and he used to see rushes, yes, but he never, he would never have dared to make any creative comments. He used to send us daily reports of status in terms of schedule, and, and budget, which, of course, was then my responsibility to try and control. And at that time, David, it was reasonably new as a director and he could be controlled, he did take notice of what I had to say. Whereas later on, he became, you know, so powerful as it were that yes, he could literally sit down and wait three days for the sun to come out or for the clouds to be in the right place. 

Roy Fowler  13:28  

But I would think he was still very meticulous.

Ronald Neame  13:31  

Oh, yeah. He was a  perfectionist. And he used to say, which is absolutely true, he used to say," You know, Ronnie, it's quite easy to make a 50% good film. A 60% good film is twice as difficult. And a 70%. good film is four times as difficult. And an 80%. good film is 20 times as difficult. Each percentage of quality is harder and harder and harder. And he also used to say once you start giving in, once you start compromising and accepting second best, where do you stop? And therefore the only thing to do is to be a perfectionist.

Roy Fowler  14:21  

Well that's the way of a hack, isn't it? And there were a great many around in the British film industry in those days, like Maurice Elvey for example. Very competent in what they did, but little more than that. What was Arthur's reaction when finally he saw it? Presumably, he saw Oh,

Ronald Neame  14:39  

they all they all have “Great Expectations”. The only one that was narky was was John was it it was very good, but it's far too expensive when it and we'll never get our money back. Of course, it was a long time before we did get our money back. Yes, in fairness, those pictures For several years after they were made, they were in the red. But now of course, they every one of them has come into profit.

Roy Fowler 1  15:13  

Now that was handled by United Artists in the States, wasn't it? Or did that

Ronald Neame  15:20  

caused the distribution and I was never very

Roy Fowler 1  15:23  

knowledgeable about, I wonder what the returns were from the initial.

Ronald Neame  15:27  

I don't know, I have absolutely no idea what came back I suspect not very much.

Roy Fowler  15:33  

But you all had points in we had,

Ronald Neame  15:36  

yes percentage of the net. And as I say, I still get a little cheque twice a year, from the  Rank Organisation who are meticulously honest. And we get I get a little cheque from  “Great Expectations”. I get a cheque now and again, from the card. Not the Horse's Mouth. Because the Horse's Mouth was financed by United Artists. And they sold it to Janus films, and then the percentage stopped coming in.

Roy Fowler  16:11  

But it's still circulating. So

Ronald Neame  16:13  

yes, Horse's Mouth plays all the time. So does Tunes Of Glory In fact, most of my old films still play on American television considerably. I'm better now now in America than I was when I was making films because of the amount of showings on television and fan letters from strange places, you know, Hamburg in Germany, and always sort of where I think the Odessa File is, is still shown a lot in Germany, it's very was very successful in Germany, just funnily enough, because he was an anti nazi as

Roy Fowler  16:54  

well, a lot of anti Nazis, I think, in Germany, even though yes, I'm right. So one tiny little question about Rank which may or may not have relevance, and that is the extent to which Mrs. Rankhad any input? Not

Ronald Neame  17:09  

so far as I know not at all she may have had some behind the scenes is but never she never appeared in in any way. She was certainly not an anti Davis, it is said that she read scripts that is possible. That is possible. Oh no. There

Roy Fowler  17:28  

was a there wasn't Mrs. Davis at that point, wasn't it?

Ronald Neame  17:32  

John at that point was I think he was between marriages. Because I seem to remember he was by himself a great deal. And then he married Diana.

Roy Fowler  17:46  

Sheridan Sheridan.

Ronald Neame  17:48  

But that was later he married her.

Roy Fowler  17:50  

And set out to destroy her former husband. Who was Jimmy Hanley. Oh,

Ronald Neame  17:56  

that's right. Jimmy Handly. Yes.

Roy Fowler  17:58  

He never worked again in  pictures. Wicked man.

Ronald Neame  18:03  

A wicked man. Is anything written about him? 

Roy Fowler  18:08  

I think everyone's waiting for him to die.

Roy Fowler 1  18:11  

And  they'll all have a  go.

Ronald Neame  18:14  

Well, all right. So  “Great Expectations”. Well, I guess we've done what we can about that. The music was rather good by somebody whose name I've forgotten, forgotten, who would have not written much of the screen but did a very good job of work. And at that time, there was this great champion of British composers who did all the conducting Muir  on every film that was Muir Matheson.  Muir  should have been knighted, because he was such a wonderful champion for British composers You know, people like Willie Walton and Arthur Bliss.

Roy Fowler  19:06  

Ralph Vaughn  Williams was another I think that

Ronald Neame  19:09  

yes, he can. And they are great. They all those men owe a great deal to Muir without any debt. But after “Great Expectations”, we decided on “Oliver Twist”, because “Great Expectations” had been so successful, that we felt that we should go with another Dickens film. However, Tony Havelock – Allen was beginning to become interested in doing his own film within Cine Guild. He rather wanted to break away from the trio, it's still as a producer, but still as a producer. And I don't know when where the continuity comes. But a little later, Tony was working on “Blanche Fury” with a Marc Allégret a director from outside and starring his wife, and Stuart Granger. So although he was within Cine Guild, he had his own production. And David and I didn't have anything to do with that at all. And I was beginning, even after just after “Great Expectations”, I enjoyed producing it. But I  really wanted to get back onto the stage, into the studio I, I wasn't happy, fighting about budgets and schedules, and sitting behind a desk and having production meetings and all that. I missed very much the floor. And of course, David, always, David’s cameraman was his pal, his chum. And as long as I was David's cameraman, he and I were absolutely inseparable. In some weird kind of a way, when I became his producer, I became a little bit the enemy.

Roy Fowler 21.29

 It's the nature of the job. 

Ronald Neame  21:31 

It’s the nature of the job, I think, I'd always thought that when I became a producer, I could be a great help to the director, because I have a lot of practical knowledge. But it wasn't really so. David regarded Guy as his friend. And I could see, whereas I'd always been on the set as a cameraman and David now had been inseparable. I could, when I used to come on the set and “Great Expectations”,  I would notice that David would look towards me and he would wonder a little bit more “what's Ronnie doing here, you know, was coming on to say you must get off this set tonight”. And so I really by the time we were preparing “Oliver Twist”, I was feeling I can't go back and be a cameraman because that's putting the clock back. But I really don't want to be a producer. And it was then I suppose for the first time, I started to think about the possibility of directing. And so also around about this time, Stanley Haynes, do you remember him?  Stanley, who was a great personal friend of both David and myself. Stanley wanted to join Cine Guild very, very badly. And Stanley also wanted to be David's producer. And Stanley knew that I wasn't very happy as a producer and wanted perhaps to do something different. And so Stanley joined Cine Guild as David's co writer on “Oliver Twist”. I produced it, but I don't think I have a screenplay credit on “Oliver Twist”. I think it was David and Stanley as far as I can remember that did that. And I became less involved with David as a very close personal friend. And around about this time, now, this is a stage in my history, which I'm very sketchy about, because I can't entirely remember which came first and which came second and what the continuity was.

Roy Fowler 1  24:13  

Right. Well talk about it as you remember it because facts will be a matter of record. Where in terms of dates, things,

Ronald Neame  24:22  

but I know that Tony and I were we've always been very, very friendly. And indeed we're going to spend a week with him in Venice with Tony in a couple of weeks time. Because he always  rents a house on the Grand Canal office come September

Roy Fowler 1  24:42  

so stinking a lot, so it was cool for him to see.

Ronald Neame  24:49  

But I sort of felt had like to direct a picture and Tony had read a screenplay. Written by Graham. What the hell's his name? Very now a very well known novelist Grimm, did you say yeah, I think he's second thing was Graham. Winston No, Winston?

Roy Fowler  25:25  

I think I know you mean

Ronald Neame  25:30  

I know him so well. He's a member of the saddle club. But anyway, he had never written a screenplay before. And he and a friend of his who a woman, I think, who was an actress, they had written a screenplay, called Take my life, a little murder mystery. And Tony read this. And Tony said, you know, Ronnie, if you want to direct a picture, you couldn't do better than take something like this one, take my life, because it's, we can make it on a reasonable budget. And it will be a very good one for you to you know, to try wings. And so indeed, I decided that I would like to direct take my life. And I think this was happening at around about the time we were shooting “Oliver Twist”. But I got very much involved with “Oliver Twist” when it came to the music, and the editing. And I don't quite know why I did the music. And David didn't. This is where the sketchiness comes because I didn't quite know what David was doing.

Roy Fowler 1  26:50  

Could it be related to Anton in any way?

Ronald Neame  26:53  

No, you're not. Up until that time, there was no no question of and tada. Still,

Roy Fowler  27:00  

isn't it on “Oliver Twist”, of course.

Ronald Neame  27:04  

But I know that I that we engaged on hold backs, who was the master of the Queen's musical kings,

Roy Fowler  27:12  

I guess then, the king's music.

Ronald Neame  27:15  

And Arnold was wonderful, wonderful composer. But he couldn't bear the idea of having to write his music to the exact length of the film used to say, Well, why can't you lengthen the film a bit. He hated having to restrict Himself to the absolute split second that was necessary. And so and he also wanted the music very loud, always. I mean, when we when we played back, the recorded track with the picture and the sound and the dialogue, he kept on saying the music, music upset in order to please Him, we would have the music louder than the dialogue, but not dubbing it that way. But just so that it made him feel happy. But the reason I'm particularly mentioning him is because I think it was then I realised that probably of all the arts, the composer is, is probably the greatest because all right a painter has paints and a brush and brushes and a canvas and he puts his artistic creative work onto a canvas with the use of other things. The writer has his has writes his words with a pen or types them but the composer it's all within his head. And it's to me it seems to be more creative than all the others.

Roy Fowler 1  29:02  

And I think when it works, it reaches people in a more profound fashion. Yes,

Ronald Neame  29:06  

I think it does. But I was what made reminds me now this was  an incident during the recording of the music on “Oliver Twist”, which as I say I did. If you remember the film at the beginning, there is a big sequence all shot in the studio, by the way, and brilliantly designed by John Bryan, where this young woman who is very pregnant, is struggling through the storm to the workhouse when she collapses outside the workhouse gates. And then it's taken in and and young Oliver is born. And David had cut the sequence beautifully. It was one wonderfully wonderful opening sequence to film. And I remember that David had, we had a close shot of the girl who is obviously having a stabbing pain in her stomach, holding her stomach. And David made the direct cut to a briar with spikes, which was bending in the wind and the rain and the cutting from the girl holding her stomach to this big close shot of these spikes doing this was very dramatic. And we also wanted to illustrate it with music. He wanted to hit the spikes musically. And when we came to the section of music, and we put the way I heard the music, we put the section up on the screen of film. The music over the spikes, wasn't there. It was not. I mean, there was music there. But Arnold had forgotten all about what we wanted doing that. So I went up to him and I said, Arnold, what about the rose? The bride the thorns? What about that pain? Oh, he said, I forgot. I said, Well, we got to have it. He said yes, yes, yes. I said, Well, what do we do? We said now? What I said yes. Now I mean, we have a 75 orchestra of 75. And I can't afford to bring him down again. Oh, he said, Okay. So he walked over to the podium where Bill was, was busy rehearsing. And he asked me for a pencil and a bit of paper. And he proceeded to serve as line paper for music. He proceeded to write a few notes in a very spidery sort of hand. And then he wrote a few notes underneath and, and he didn't suppose it took him more than about three minutes. And then he handed this to me. And he said something, he must have said that give it to the trombones to that flutes, and or whatever. So I'm here looks at this and nods. And then Muller gets one of the secretaries. And they they copy this out six times, and they hand it around was all done in about 10 minutes. And Muller said okay, let's try it. And Samuel taps his battle and raises it. And out from the orchestra comes this absolutely wonderful sound, which absolutely illustrated the pain and the whole of the whole anguish. And I thought my God, how clever. This funny girl gentleman had just with a pencil and a few dots had created this magic. Really wonderful. And I always remember that there. There are things that one never forgets, obviously. But I do forget a great many things of that period.

Roy Fowler 1  33:22  

Well, this might trigger something I don't think it's particularly important other than recording the history of the British film industry. “Oliver Twist” was your last picture of denim presumably wasn't new one moved over to Pinewood is that right?

Ronald Neame  33:34  

Oh, no, we moved over earlier, we moved over to Pinewood halfway through what two thirds of the way through “Great Expectations”. Because I remember we shot the paddle steamer, the studio sequences in the tank. And I remember we did that at Pinewood Yes. And I think we stayed at Pinewood from then on. Yes. So that was an “Oliver Twist” was certainly made at Pinewood. And I remember that. But yes, I was very much. The producer and “Oliver Twist”, I had some pretty difficult times in particularly with Bob Newton, Robert Newton, he was back on the bottle. And it was giving us quite a lot of trouble. And right at the end of the film, he was always giving us trouble Bob, although I was very fond of him, but I always remember right at the end of the film, we were working out on the lot at night. And it was the sequence where he he slips from the roof. He's he takes the forces the by Oliver up onto the roof when he's trying to escape from the mob or attacking him. And he slips and he hangs himself. I mean, that's the end of the film. And it was bitterly cold out on the lot at night. And we had one more One night to go. And suddenly, I get a call from Bob Newton's agent to say that Bob is ill and can't do the last night. That work. And I said, Well, now look, this is a very serious situation. What do you mean? He's ill? Well, he has his doctor says that. He's got bronchitis, Bronco, saying and he just can't work. I said, Well, I'm sorry. But Mr. Newton was come down to the studio today, it was daytime, we were shooting at night. Because I said, I must get the insurance doctor in to examine him and and convinced me that he really is ill. And then we'll have to shoot somehow another with doubles. And we may need an insurance claim. So down comes Bob, who was examined by our insurance doctor. And Bob was wanting to go away. Bob wanted to go away on a holiday and had already planned it. And we come behind a couple of days. And the doctor examined him and said to me, if you put this man on the lot tonight, in that cold, you could well endanger his life. He has pleurisy. He's has this at the other end, he really is very ill. So I had to concede acid or I booked her home. And we had to manage the rest of the thing with doubles. That night, which didn't make David very happy. But the next day, I had a telegram from Bob sent from some seaside resort somewhere. With Derani just off on my holiday. Thank you for everything love Bob. And he had fooled everybody. He hadn't got pleurisy. He was ill. He convinced the doctor he had. It's absolutely astonishing.

Roy Fowler 1  37:12  

Well, it's reprehensible to and totally unprofessional. Well, he must have known you were getting into that thing sort of thing within digital. Yes. No,

Ronald Neame  37:20  

but you see, he was so right for Bill sayings. He was so right for it. And, you know, once said, Well, alright, we know we're gonna we're gonna suffer Bob, but but he's worth it. And then, of course, we had a little John Howard Davis. Who was Jack Davis, the writers son played all over this little boy, not a very good actor.

Roy Fowler 1  37:48  

Terribly proper. Yes. This terribly proper? Well, again, a very successful picture.

Ronald Neame  37:57  

Yes, not quite as good as “Great Expectations”,

Roy Fowler  38:01  

terms of business or in terms

Ronald Neame  38:05  

of the way regarding the weight, it holds up, it doesn't hold up as well as “Great Expectations”. But there's some wonderful sequences in it, particularly the murder of Nancy, I remember, sequences like that were absolutely first rate. But as well as that picture finished, so I wanted to do take my life, David, probably I don't want

Roy Fowler 1  38:31  

something you might say later about “Great Expectations”, but there are the censorship issues to touch on with. Oh, yes. You mentioned earlier. Oliver's mother pregnant. No, that was wasn't was that not a problem with the production code? No,

Ronald Neame  38:47  

no, that wasn't a problem. The problem was with the horrific burning of Miss Harris of an Escalade. That was a problem. That was a big, big problem. They fought us on “Great Expectations” because of that “Oliver Twist”

Roy Fowler  39:10  

rather than thinking dent,

Ronald Neame  39:11  

oh, there was Fagan but I didn't think censorship came into that group. What is what happened? There was oh, festival if there's another there is another thing that I should say here. Attic had played the young, pale young gentleman in “Great Expectations”, and attic was I think 34 or 35. And when he heard that we were making “Oliver Twist”. He said I would like to play Fagan. And we said that come on, Eric. You're 35 years old. You've just played the pale young gentleman the blonde this feat? How? How can you really? How can you play Fagan? He said Well, all I asked you to do is to Take a Test. And knowing what a fine actor Alec was, we knew that if he, if he said that he could play fake and we'd better treat it seriously. And so he put on this fantastic makeup, copying exactly the Fagan from the Cruickshank drawings in the, in the, in the book in the in the dickens book. And he did this test. And he was absolutely wonderful. And so we cast him as vegan and we kept the makeup. And there was, at this time, a very strong sensitivity amongst the Jewish population, probably because of Hitler and the war and all the persecution and all of them. And we came under very, very heavy criticism. They jumped at now John David started to come on the scene to John Davis thought we ought to tone down he had and he must have seen the test. And I think he said, Well, certainly people around him said, they really shouldn't make a caricature like that of Fagan. It's, it's in bad taste, and it's insulting. And our argument was that we were copying exactly the Cruickshank drawings, and that there were the two villains. One was Bill Sykes, the Gentile. And then the other was Fagan, the Jew. And of the two, Fagan was far the most more attractive character. He was shrewd, and he was intelligent. He had a sense of humour, providing employment. Yes. And whereas Bill Sikes was just a big bully with nothing to recommend him and so we thought, well, all right, we have a Jew and we have a Gentile but but they're equally balanced. And so I will the first, however, it damaged the film very, very much in America. Because Ben Hecht was leading a campaign against what they considered was anti sigmatism in America. And they used “Oliver Twist” as ammunition for his campaign.

Roy Fowler 1  42:25  

Then next thing was the presence in Palestine and the formation of Israel. So yeah, he was probably using “Oliver Twist” even more deviously. Yes, rather than just anti definitely.

Ronald Neame  42:36  

Well, that's true. But certainly they picketed the theatres in America. And we need Bruce I think was was behind. Yes, I think we really got into into bad trouble. But I don't I don't regret having done it the way we did,

Roy Fowler  42:54  

because you have to make cuts for America?

Ronald Neame  42:56  

No, no, we didn't. But we did get a lot of complaints. Can I have a drop of that orange juice in

Roy Fowler 1  43:05  

DC? Or I provided you whichever you prefer?

Ronald Neame  43:08  

I think I have a little orange juice today. On

Roy Fowler  43:11  

slide 10, believe it or not, all right. Well, now.

Ronald Neame  43:14  

I don't know whether there'll be more things arising that are of interest and in “Great Expectations” are all end date “Oliver Twist”. But I would suspect that for the moment we've dealt with them. The one of the important things from the personal story point of view were is really the arrival of Stanley Haynes because was the first time that we brought anybody in from outside except that we had talked with Eric Ambler. Because when we were looking for material as possible, possible future cine gear productions, we all got to know Eric. And we liked Eric very much. But in fact, he hadn't really done any, any work for us. But he was very close to us because he worked while he worked at Ealing, of course, and he wrote several screenplays there and was a friend. And Stanley began to realize more strongly that I was moving away from the producing thing. And so David, although David hated the idea of me not producing for him, because even though he regarded me as a little bit the enemy he nevertheless would rather have had me producing than then have anybody else producing except perhaps stably who, with whom he became very friendly. and David indeed has said to me, it's sometime later he said, you know, Ronnie, you could be one of the best producers in the world. I don't think you'll be one of the best directors in the world. And, you know, he may be right about that. But I, I didn't mind not being anything like as good as David. I just wanted to have a go at directing a picture. And I deliberately picked this small subject. And Tony, Havelock Ellen helped me. And David, I think took took a sabbatical. I think he took time out. I don't remember David doing anything after “Oliver Twist” for quite a while. I think he went on a vacation, I think. I seem to remember that his marriage was just breaking up at this time. And yes, in fact, I know it was breaking up, even though Kay played in “Oliver Twist”. And so Tony agreed to produce take my life. And I thought it'd be a wonderful opportunity for me to direct. We had tam Williams played in it, Marius Goring Greta Ghent who was pretty girl, but not a very great actress. And I can't remember who else. But I think Guy Green, photographed it. And certainly John Bryan did the sets on it. So it was a sort of cine Gil production, but it was a small production. And we hadn't made we hadn't done a small picture. But this was a small picture. And it moved along very well. And I found that I got on well with actors. And I sort of knew what I was doing. I was, you know, it was the first picture. So nobody could say it was great. But it wasn't bad. But when he got into the editing room, there were areas that worried me areas that I was worried about. And I must say, to his eternal credit, David was wonderful. He came and took a look at the film. And he said, Look, I'll give you four days on the cutting room. And we can do a lot with it. And indeed, he did do a lot with it. It was an eye opener to me, just what good editing could do. And out came the picture. And it had very, very good reviews. I think it was a first time director, they're always kind to a first time director. And the I think the picture was great, frankly, praised beyond what it really was. But it was a great pleasure for me because I was back on the floor again. And I was doing what I really wanted to do. And so that was that it was uneventful. I can't remember any particular drama. And as I say, David helped tremendously in the in the editing. But now, the situation within cine guild was that we had a second director in me, Tony have like Alan was very much now making his own producing his own pictures. And was, as I say, was caught up with Blanche fury and, and his and his wife, who was an actress. And David was very much involved with Stanley Haynes. So already there was a sort of splintering as it were, there was the it wasn't the solid metal triangle that it had been. It was it was and David was beginning after “Oliver Twist”, which was a big success. He was beginning to become a very important director. And I met Eric Ambler again. And Eric wanted to produce a picture. And Eric was a good writer.

Roy Fowler  49:26  

Is this before or after October, man?

Ronald Neame  49:31  

I don't know.

Roy Fowler 1  49:33  

I wondered how experienced he was. But I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been fairly experienced.

Ronald Neame  49:37  

But at any rate, he'd done several Ealing pictures. The Cruel See, I think and pose that Eric

Roy Fowler 1  49:48  

doesn't matter. No, that comes later anyway. 50s Yeah, yeah. Well,

Ronald Neame  49:54  

anyway, I know that I remit Eric. And I said to Eric, I wish we could find a story together Eric either one of yours or, or somebody else's, which you could make into a screenplay. And since you really are becoming interested in film, why didn't you produce one? And we started to search for a story. He and I, meanwhile, Stanley Haines and   were looking to try and find their next subject. And they didn't have any luck in finding something. Mostly because David was very, very choosy. I mean, it took him sometimes years, between productions in order to find something he really wanted to do. But we moved very quickly. We found an HG Wells story, called the passionate friends. And we decided we would bring it up to date. It was a period piece, but Eric thought that it could be contemporary. And we worked on a screenplay together, Eric being the principal writer, and me being the chopping block, because I always regard myself as a chopping block for a writer, I'm, I'm helpful, I toss things into the pot, and but I never really consider myself to be the principal writer. But anyway, in a matter of seven or eight weeks, we had what Rico considered what we thought was rather good script. And it was simply Eric and I, Tony was busy elsewhere. David was busy with Stanley. And we said, Well, now, who is the ideal actress to play this. And we both agreed that it was perfect for n. Ann Todd, who at that time was at the height of Korea. And we sent it to Ann Todd. And I sent a little letter and said that we would like you to read the script. And if she liked it, we'd like to talk to her. Well, she absolutely flipped over this script. She loved it. She said she couldn't wait to start doing it. And I think Eric and I were somewhat astonished. Because we didn't know how good it was or how bad it was, you know, we were too close to it. But when we got this kind of response from a highly successful actress of the time, we began to feel well, we've really got something. And so we put our sights even higher. There was a villain in the, in the, in the passionate friends. And Claude Rains was the perfect casting. But Claude Rains, of course, was in Hollywood. And we sent Claude Rains a script. And back came a letter from Claude. Love the script. Can't wait to come over and do it. Let me know when I to arrive. And suddenly, we had Claude Rains. Then We sent it to Trevor here. I gave it to Trevor Howard, who, of course, I knew because of briefing Carter. And Trevor said, I would like to play the young man. It's a triangle story of a husband and wife Claude Raines being the husband, and Ann Todd, the wife and Trevor had being the lover. And David and Stanley. Were sort of astonished. I couldn't quite understand how Eric and I had suddenly put this all together. And they were still looking for a subject. And there was a little bit of a little bit of professional jealousy there. One, one has to know that. Tony, he was much too busy on whatever he was busy on. So I said to John Bryan, David's not doing anything at the moment, about designing the sets on the passionate friends and John agreed, Guy Green, agreed to photograph it. We started to build sets. Quite important, six, quite expensive sets. And one day, Stanley Haynes phoned me from London and said, Ronnie, your film, The Passionate Friends. At is, after all, a cynical film, isn't it? And I suppose he is certainly it's an ego. He said, Well, you know, David, and I think that it would would be a good idea if we If we were to read your script, because we do feel that we are part of it, it's our company. And I said, Well, of course Stanley, I mean, by all means read it. And so I sent a couple of copies a copy for Stanley and a copy for David. Meantime, we went, we went on with casting smaller parts and all of this, and Eric was doing some final adjustments to the script. And I suddenly got another phone call from Stanley a couple of days later, he said, Ronnie, David, now I've read your script, other Passionate Friends as yours. He said, we're very, very worried. Both of us are very worried, because we think that you're going to be in serious trouble. And we would like to suggest, because we do have some suggestions to give you. We would ask if you and Eric would come and have dinner tomorrow night at the White House Restaurant, which is where we always used to go for dinner. We had a private room upstairs and a lot of us used to go there we go. Alex Gordy used to come with a whole bunch of filmmakers. We'd have a dinner about once every month. But this was a different kind of dinner. Stanley and David wanted Eric Ambler and I to have dinner, to talk about our script, that screenplay. And so we went along and learn Behold, who should also be there, but George Archibald, who was the managing director of independent producers. And we started to have dinner and we exchanged a few pleasantries. And then Stanley, who seemed to be the chairman, said, Now let's get down to discussing the screenplay. both David and I think that it is a very bad screenplay, indeed. And we think that if you were to go on the floor with this, you would be running into disaster. And we would like to suggest that revisions are made. And our suggestion is that you put the production back five weeks, and Stan Stanley said and David has very generously agreed that he will work on the screenplay with Eric Ambler. And with myself, and Irani continue to prepare the picture. And we will do the revisions of the script, and we will send them to you every two or three days. And in this way, maybe in five or six weeks, we will have a screenplay that we feel will be more suitable. Well, I cannot begin to tell you, because it's marked on mice. here still, Eric and I were absolutely shattered. And Ann Todd had loved it. Claude Rains it loved it. Trevor had liked it, George Archibald, and one or two of the independent producing types and read it and they liked it. But, of course, Stanley and David were both very, very lucid in what they had to say. And I always thought David was the greatest filmmaker ever. And if David thought that I was into a bad screenplay, then I knew that it must be said, Eric just went very, very pale and said nothing. And George Archibald said, Well, whatever you all feel we should do, we will do. And so I said, Well, look, I think that I'd better go and see Arthur rank. And tell him that we want to postpone for a few weeks and explain that, David, and feels that we should do more work on the screenplay. And I did go to see Arthur the next day and I told him the situation. And I said, this is going to cost some money offer. But I think probably it's the right thing to do. And as I said, All right, Ronnie, if that's what you feel we'll postpone for three weeks or four weeks.

Ronald Neame  59:47  

Well, they, they being Now Eric and Stanley and David started to work on the screenplay that they started from Ah one. And they rewrote the story pretty well completely, to such an extent that some of the sets that I had already got built and was continuing to build, were no longer wanted, because they'd been cut out and other sets that were not intended. But were now in this, the script had to be built. There was a big big location sequence in Annecy, Lake Annecy, the that John Bryan and I chose, we chose the lake and we built on the lake, the large terrace of a big hotel overlooking the lake, we couldn't find the right terrace on any of the real hotels on the lakes around there, but with John Bryan felt that we could build a terrace as a set. And do the reverse is in the studio. But the use the terrace with the lake is the background. And indeed, it was a lovely location. And John and I went out there and chose that location during the time the screenplay was being rewritten. Finally, the four weeks was up. And we would do to start shooting. And I had 35 pages of script. So of quite new, a different story, really. David never read the original book of the HG Wells book. But David was loving it. And Dave said, Ronnie, I think you're going to have a script. It's, it's going to be marvellous. I'm thrilled and excited about it. Well, I no longer knew. I mean, it was so different from what we had planned. Eric and I, Eric was, I don't know what happened to Eric. He just, he just gave up, gave up and just wrote what he was told to write. And I had to send to an Ann Todd are 35 pages of a new script, saying that David Lean, had worked on the screenplay, and this was now what we were going to shoot. She read it. She said, Well, I don't know what was wrong with the other one. But this is fine with me if this is the way it's gonna go. And we started shooting. Claude Rains hadn't arrived from Hollywood. He was due a week later. And I was lost. I mean, I really didn't know what I was doing. But I did my best. I mean, it was. It was a devastating situation, because I didn't know what was going to happen with the next the last 70 pages of the screenplay. Anyway, we shot for a couple of days. And then the phone call comes from Stanley Haynes. It was always Stanley. Rene David. Now we'd love to take a look at your rashes. So I said well, yes, of course Danny. Had them sent out after I've seen them today. Next day, I had to call Ronnie. It's Friday. We want to talk to you over the weekend, because we're worried. I said, Okay, I went up on the Saturday. And David and Stanley said, Ronnie, this is not what we intended. You're you're not on the ball. And something has to be done. I said, well, like what? So they said jointly. Well, we think you should stop production. And we think that the screenplay should be completed. And we will have it completed within within the next three weeks. And we think that David should take over the direction of the picture. And Stanley, you David says use them they will have a course. You know, David said and Stanley is prepared to stand back Ronnie and you Rene will produce the picture. And of course the screenplay is by gambler who will now not produce it. So in other words, the suggestion was that I halted production that David finished the screenplay that David directed that I produced. And I said, well, obviously I have to go and see Arthur again, as this is what you feel should be done. And I honestly don't know. I don't know to this day, whether they're our script was dreadful, original script, or whether it was alright. I was absolutely lost and shattered, and so is Eric. So once again, I go to Arthur rank. And now this time is pretty serious. Because I'm now asking for three more weeks delay and I'm paying and paying actors. But once again, Arthur, who is always wonderful on these occasions, said, Alright, Ronnie, that's what we better do if that's what you feel we should do. They're much, much later, many years later, when all the story came out, David said, Arthur had asked him to intervene. This I know, it was not. So Arthur didn't have anything to say at all. It was purely within Cine Guild. It was purely Stanley and David. To this day, I don't know whether Stanley person persuaded David, or whether David really thought we were in an absolute disastrous situation with the screenplay, I don't know to this day,

Roy Fowler  1:06:41  

Or whether he wanted it for himself, or

Ronald Neame  1:06:44  

Whether he wanted it for himself. I don't, honestly, I don't. However, I went against the author, as I say, and drag it and it is home, and he was sweet. Now, I phoned up Ann Todd. And I say, and we are going to stop production for two or three weeks. And I've got a surprise for you. David Lean is going to take over directing the picture, and I'm going to produce it and Ann said , “well, that is a surprise”. But she said it because David is very good director. And I said he's the best. And I said, I want you to I want to introduce you to David, who she'd never met. He'd never met she'd never met. And I'd like to introduce you. And then I'd like the two of you to get together. And the final screenplay will be ready in three or four weeks. And we will then get underway again. And they did finish the screenplay in about four weeks. And Stanley stepped back. And Eric vanished. And I produced all the same crew Guy Green, John Bryan. And I, I thought, right, you know, no good crying over spilt milk. But clearly, I will never be able to direct the film again, not for for the  Rank Organisation and for Cine Guild, because it just is too disastrous. So I produced David fell in love with  Ann Todd. We had the worst summer in Switzerland, that on record, I think for rain, and, and no possibility of shooting. And David and Ann  became closer and closer. And by the end of the film, she had left her husband and moved in with David. And all together, it was pretty disastrous. I met Claude Rains at the airport. And he said, I'm delighted to meet my director. I said, you're not meeting your director, you're meeting your producer, because David Lean is going to direct. And he was very nice about it, and remained friends with me for the rest of his life. We became very good friends. And that was it. The film was not well received. It was the first time that's Cine Guilds had had a bad picture. I obviously blamed myself. But I was I just couldn't understand it. And Stanley said to me, he said, Of course Ronnie, you know, you, you won't be able to direct any more with the  Rank Organisation . It's, it's obviously not on the cards. And I said, Well, no, I suppose not. And then we were having a meeting of all the independent producers and all of them said, Ronnie, if you let this spoil your career, you're out of your mind. You directed “Take My Life”, it was a good little picture. You know what you're doing, you're a good craftsman. And you have got to go on directing, you must not let this get in your way. And they all persuaded me, because I would have never gone back. They persuaded me that I should put it behind me, and that I should look for something else to make. And at that particular moment. Sasha Galperson, who was a Russian, who was working for the   Rank Organisation , in some other capacity, said that he had found a novel called The Golden Salamander, which he thought would make good film. And that the best thing for me was to get my feet wet again, and, and make it he would produce it. And I would direct it. It was very clear that I could never work with David again. And it was very clear that Stanley and David had now become a partnership. And it was very clear that Tony didn't want to be any part of it. And so it was agreed that Stanley and David could buy  Tony’s shares and my shares in the little company. But Tony and I insisted that we should wait a year. And we would hold our shares for a year. And that if, at the end of the year, Stanley and David were into a real partnership, then we would sell our shares. Well, David made, “Madeleine” with  Ann Todd starring. And I think with Stanley producing, I think he was the producer of “Madeleine.” Same crew, John, John Bryan, and so on and so forth. But I wanted, I was I'd recovered by now. And I very much wanted John Bryan to work with me. So I said, Look, John, when you finish “Madeleine” with David, why don't you join me and become a producer? Because you'd be a very, very good producer. Really, and truly, I did it because I wanted his design because he was so brilliant. I knew he'd still go on designing. So Madeleine comes to an end. Sinegal breaks up. I direct a golden salamander with a new game me and Trevor Howard who still would work with me. And Sasha produced it and we made it in Africa. And it wasn't a bad picture like this, but quite good. And he got me back on my feet again. Now, to finish this very different kinds of story from all the rest of it. Around about this time, it was clear that the  Rank Organisation were going to cut back on film and making films. John Davis had at last moved in and had taken the reins. And Alexander Korda was willing David and asked David, if he would go make pictures for him. And David said, Well, I Yes, but I have a producer at Stanley Haynes who I would like to bring with me. And Korda said, I am the producer. He said I don't need anybody else. I just need you David. And I'm going to make absence choice with Charles Lawton. And I would like you to direct it. But I don't need Stanley hands. And David agreed to do it. And he moved over to Korda and Stanley Haynes dropped out. My much later, Stanley Haynes was going to try and put together the Pickwick Papers. And it was turned down by Rex Harrison who he wanted to play in it. And Stanley committed suicide. Now that is Now that the absolute factual, true story of the breaking up of cine guild, I tried to tell it exactly as it happened. I still do not know whether or not the original screenplay was as bad. And I think that David, although I never broached it again. And I produced the “Passionate Friends” to the best of my ability. I still don't know what were the real, the things attached to it. What I do know is that a couple of years later, when I was once more back with the Rank Organisation, having made the Magic Box as a producer, and then John and I went back to the   Rank Organisation, I think that was production facilities. And John, we were keen, got keen on a, on a novel, the card and Arnold Bennett. And I got in touch with Eric. And I said, Eric, despite our past experiences, how about doing the screenplay of the car. And Eric said, I would love to rally. And Eric did the screenplay on the card. And we made the car with Alec and as and it was a very successful picture.

Roy Fowler 1  1:16:37  

So you, you never really had an opinion about who was the most Machiavellian in that situation? I mean,

Ronald Neame  1:16:46  

Stanley Hayes was the leader. I don't quite know why he would do it. I think you see, there was something in Dickens that I remember reading, and one of the one of the ones we made, I don't know whether it was, I think it was probably “Great Expectations”. Where it says, There is nothing easier than to destroy a man's confidence in himself. Nothing easier. And it's the work of the devil. And there is no doubt I mean, you can destroy anybody if you've used, you know, no matter how strong you are. If somebody says you're into a disastrous situation, I mean, takes a pretty strong man to overcome that. So in a way,

Roy Fowler 1  1:17:41  

Lean must have been complicit in because Haynes didn't have the authority within the  Rank Organisation , or thought of that he'd only

Ronald Neame  1:17:50  

just joined. And you see, it could well be, and this is why one has to be so careful when one tells this kind of story. I'm telling it from my point of view, it could well be that David Lean, aided by Stanley, who was convinced that we were not making a good

Roy Fowler 1  1:18:08  

picture. Does the original version of the script still exists?

Ronald Neame  1:18:12  

I don't think so. I don't think so. That's a pity, isn't it? Yes.

Roy Fowler  1:18:18  

Really interesting.

Ronald Neame  1:18:19  

I've never asked Eric if he kept a copy, but I very much doubt if he ever did. And so that brings us very neatly to the end of synagogue because David never made a film under the Cine Gil banner again. And that was Cindy Gil with both

Roy Fowler 1  1:18:42  

“Madeleine” and  “Passionate Friends” were really quite considerable financial failures winter.

Ronald Neame  1:18:49  

Yes, they were David's worst pictures. And then the first picture he did with Korda Hobson's Choice was pretty good. So nice picture Yes. And then he was underway again with “Bridge on the River Kwai and Oh, no festival. “The Sound Barrier” breaking the sound.

Roy Fowler 1  1:19:13  

Very good picture is the just talking about him. Part of the problem say a personal one. He has relationships with women that he might be inclined to indulge whoever was he's currently now Murata. I've never seen either “Passionate Friends or Madeleine. So I don't know to what she might be favoured. And, well,

Ronald Neame  1:19:34  

there is no doubt that David became absolutely besotted with her. He thought she was wonderful and he was he had become really very famous and as a director, and an of course I mean, it was such a scandal and was married and and so wherever Ann and David went, they were chased by the press and photographers because it was a sort of a six month sort of scandal, really. And then it settled down, of course. And then he made metal in for her. By which time I think things were getting shaky with the marriage, and they didn't work together again. That was a terrible payoff to this story, which I think should not be on the record. Yes. I think you're good if you switch it, switch off the machine. David Lean, cared about one thing, and one thing only and that was film. He he really, honestly, if he was making a film, and somebody told him that his his mother was dying, he'd say, Well, I'm terribly sorry. But I got to finish this scene. I'll get back to you. But yeah, I mean, he really lived, fulfilled. And he had no, nothing else to talk about. He had nothing else that interested him. Just film. And you know, I believe, and this is jumping ahead a long, long way. But I believe that he was a little scared of Nostromo. I don't think he felt that he had the strength to make it. And yet he desperately wanted to make it. But there was a part of him that was afraid of it. And when he heard that they were striking the sets, which they did, I think David gave you I think he didn't want to go on.

Roy Fowler 1  1:21:45  

He was a very vain man along with that drive. And that dedication?

Ronald Neame  1:21:48  

Yes, there was a there was a vanity he, he was very, very attractive to women. Women loved him. I mean, I was one was on the personal side of David and my relationship, the amount of ladies that wept on my shoulder is is quite unbelievable. Because they always come to Uncle runny news, and say, Ronnie, what can I do? David just broken my heart. So he had at least two interests in life. Yes, that's true. However,

Roy Fowler  1:22:18  

film was the film mattered

Ronald Neame  1:22:20  

more than anything else.

Roy Fowler 1  1:22:22  

Now that I mean immensely traumatic experience for you what I would have thought the worst of your life. Oh, yes. Did golden salamander pull you out of it was that

Ronald Neame  1:22:34  

because it was we had we had it was a it was not an important it was a B story really. But it Trevor was wonderful. Wilfred. hideway It was very good. Herbert lamb. It was was good. It was able to give us not a bad film. I've enjoyed them, and let them and Duke was splendid.

Roy Fowler 1  1:22:57  

You had a friend of mine and Jacques Stannah? Oh, yes,

Ronald Neame  1:23:00  

yes,

Roy Fowler  1:23:01  

he's a great mood at that time. He

Ronald Neame  1:23:03  

was good too.

Roy Fowler  1:23:03  

He never went anywhere.

Ronald Neame  1:23:06  

Which is a pity. But it was it was not it was not a disgrace. Let's put it that way. And the sad thing about Golden salamander was that Sasha Gobustan, who was a wonderful man, and who was such a support for me, and helped me through such a bad bad time. He died of cancer. I never saw the film that of cancer before the film. And then, of course, after the golden salamander, there was no more  Rank Organisation so far as films were concerned. It they'd shut down completely. And because around about the time at the end of “Oliver Twist”, or certainly the end of passionate friends, although we weren't responsible for the downfall, but it was then that John Davis moved in. It was then that the National provincial bank said, You've got to cut your overdraft by $5 million in the next 12 months, or else we have foreclose. And we want John Davis to take over and be in charge. Was

Roy Fowler 1  1:24:30  

foreclosure a possibility. Lateral?

Ronald Neame  1:24:35  

Well, they were very seriously. They were certainly threatening. Yes, the bank was certainly saying this, this can't go up.

Roy Fowler 1  1:24:43  

And the  Rank Organisation was one of those sort of octopus like,  Rank Organisation s wasn't ultimately controlled I believe by 100 pound company, the family company, the component parts could have gone

Ronald Neame  1:24:59  

against the grain and never lost any personal money. No.

Roy Fowler  1:25:02  

It certainly wasn't about to buy the sound.

Ronald Neame  1:25:06  

I think he was very shrewd in that area. And John Davis just, it was a shame because Arthur, who really believed in us after lost faith in this, because really of John's,

Roy Fowler 1  1:25:22  

you will totally undermine and yeah, and indeed, Powell and Pressburger went

Ronald Neame  1:25:28  

out and Pressburger forgotten where they went. They may have gone they went

Roy Fowler 1  1:25:32  

to court, everyone went to Fordham, or allegedly except

Ronald Neame  1:25:35  

you go to did ask me to join. I hadn't got any particular subject, but I spent a long time with God. And clarity is one day and he said, Come on Iran, you come and join and I was hesitant. And then what happened. If we know if a tape we've

Roy Fowler 1  1:25:54  

got I was sending it on the side and have some lunch? Well,

Ronald Neame  1:26:03  

I moved away from the Rank Rank Organisation . I took a little office in London, and took my secretary with me, still remained very great friends with John Bryan, and said to John, Look, John, we'll find another subject to do very as soon as possible. And then John bolting came along to see me. And he said, Ronny, Jia Roy, and I have been asked to make a film for the festival of Britain. And we think that the story of William Friese Greene, the man who in we say invented the motion picture would make a wonderful film. We read the biography that would make a wonderful film and have to start.

Roy Fowler 1  1:27:02  

Tip six Ronaldinho, yes. 1951 Battle of festivals in Britain

Ronald Neame  1:27:08  

turned out to be well, John Dozin came and sought me out for it in my little office in where was I in Hanover Square, I think, and said that he and Roy had been asked if they would make a film specifically for the festival of Britain, which was planned for the following year. And that they had agreed to do it because they thought it would be a wonderful idea to make a film based upon William Friese Greene, who the British claim invented the First Motion Picture. As we know only too well. Edison claimed it for America and Lumia claimed it for Vance and goodness knows how many other contestants were there were Chinese and Russian. Yes. I think they were all at it at the same time. And it was just about to emerge from wherever. But anyway, John came to me and said, Would I since I had worked with Claude Friese Greene, his son, as an assistant for so many years, would I photograph this film? And I said, Well, Nick, you know, John, I'm not a cameraman any longer. I haven't been a cameraman for now for three years, and produced two pictures. And I've directed a couple of pictures and I'm not sure I want to be a cameraman again. So John said, Well, then, if you will be a cameraman on it, would you produce it? If I direct it? I say well, this is a bit odd. What What about Roy? Well says John Roy, in this particular case is doesn't particularly want to do it because Reuters got involved with something else. And so I said, Alright, yes, I don't mind producing it. If you direct it, but I wouldn't want to photograph it. So we had another chat. And then we both went to see Robert Clark, who was at that time, sort of boss man at Elstree Studios still, I don't know what they call themselves by the bpcia. BPC Yes. And Robert Clark was also quite an important gentleman in the film finances Corporation and all of this. And John said, you know, they are prepared to put up a certain amount of money to make a film for the festival of Britain. And but they're not prepared without very much and we both of us will have to work for very small amount of money. But it's something that Matt might be worthwhile doing. And So I agreed and we went to see Robert Clark and lo and behold very shortly we became an entity. And we the screenplay oh my goodness, you know, I can't even remember who the screenplays credited to someone

Roy Fowler 1  1:30:19  

gets the credit and I can't remember either that it's I think a single credit, isn't it? And it's a well known name.

Ronald Neame  1:30:25  

It wasn't Derek No, no, it wasn't Derek Ambler. I would love to know because I just cannot remember I'd love to know,

Roy Fowler  1:30:33  

I'll call you.

Ronald Neame  1:30:36  

Anyway, I know that we found ourselves with a script. Oh, yes, we had great, great difficulties because it was well known that William Friese Greene was a bit of a dilettante. He was a bit of a con man, he used to teach his children how to not buy tickets to get on the train to go to school. He was a very heavy drinker. He was heavily on to the bottle. And there was a very, there was a seedy side to his character.

Roy Fowler 1  1:31:09  

So he could have been the founding father of British movie. Yes, that's true.

Ronald Neame  1:31:15  

But of course, the family who were very interested that this film should be made Claus wife, who was still alive, Claude had died as the Son, and the grandchildren. They all wanted this film made, but they all wanted their grandfather to be the hero. And they didn't want any of the seedy side. But it was the seedy side that there was, was the most interesting, really, and would have made it into a bloody good film. But we had to get clearances and okays from everybody associated with the family. And so we had to clean up Mr. William freeze green a great deal. But nevertheless, it's still remained a worthwhile contribution to the festival. Now, we knew we could not afford a star cast. However, we did go to two name again, the man who played the lead donor to Bob down it and he read the script and we said, Bob, you're just perfect William free scream and Bob agreed to do it and he was paid. And I think he's the girl that played his wife. Again, names have gone isn't it dreadful kinda so well. Sister of a very good German actor, Australian actor. Well, you'll you'll feel of your phone the name at some point. Fine find young actress. Was it Rossmann? John? No, no, no, she wasn't English. She was she was she was she was Austrian or something. Sister of a very famous Act Two played for me in the Odessa fall. Played the second lead in the ADESA with Jon Voight.

Roy Fowler 1  1:33:27  

Well, no. newbuild as well

Ronald Neame  1:33:31  

as it's a blank in my mind. Why it shouldn't be blank. I don't know because I know her name as well as no yours. But anyway, we engaged her for free screens wife, and those two were paid a proper salary albeit not a very big Saturday. They're going right now they go right. But on the basis that it was a tribute to the to freeze green, and it was for the festival of Britain. And we got our usual crew around us and John Bryan Singh Kham right and sayingGuy Green. But if it wasn'tGuy Green, it was our him. Ozzie Morris. I can't remember which one of those two. Incidentally, you see as a cameraman, bothGuy Green and Ozzie Morris followed me all the way up the ladder as it were when I was a focus puller, I was he was a kappa boy. And and then when I moved up to being an operator as he moved up to being a focus puller and Arthur Ibbotson became the clever boy and we all moved up the ladder together always one step behind, but I do came in this property is very arrogant of me, but I do claim that most of the good British cameraman at that time not all of them because Jack Cardiff will didn't work with me. But most of them at that time became camera men as a result of training from me and I think they'd be the first to admit it. I always say to him, I wish he wouldn't have won an Oscar if it hadn't been for me. Because he got the Oscar.

Roy Fowler 1  1:35:12  

Anyway, that was it. He's yes. He said several nominations. I don't know what he got it for. I

Ronald Neame  1:35:19  

think you see, I think I've gotGuy Green wrong. So this is where you have to be very careful with me. BecauseGuy Green and Isiah Meyers get very mixed up in my mind. Ozzy, I know got the Oscar for one of our pictures and guy got got an awesome guy. Well, they both got an Oscar. And one was “Great Expectations”. Well, that would be going green. But yes, unless I made a great blunder and that it was Ozzie that but I think it was guy that photographed “Great Expectations”. Yes,

Roy Fowler 1  1:35:53  

I'm sure it was. Yes, I'm certain in my mind, because I don't associate obviously without all the new what you might have done for you.

Ronald Neame  1:36:01  

But anyway, we we were a go proposition on this provided we could make it on a shoe string budget. Now. both John and I knew Laurence Olivier. Not all that well. But we knew him just well enough to be able to go to him and say, Look, we're making this film for the festival of Britain. We want to cast big stars in all the small parts. And we are writing cameos into the script to accommodate all the top actors in the country and actresses. And you are probably the most important actor there is in this country at the moment. And if you would agree to play one of these cameos, you would help us on the way to getting other important actors. And Larry agreed to play the part of the policeman that William Friese Greene grabbed off the street to come and look the first film that was ever projected. And Larry Olivier said yes, I'll do it.

Roy Fowler 1  1:37:16  

Whose idea was the CAMEO because that's probably the first time it was done. Thereafter became I suppose

Ronald Neame  1:37:25  

Yes, I didn't know I think so. I think we just had it in Greek got it into was John and I we said, We've got to it's for the festival of Britain, we've got to get everybody that we can get into it as a contribution to the festival. And, and it was wonderful that Larry agreed to do it. And I must say, I screened it only the other day, this particular scene when I was doing my retrospective in America, the screen already where he grabs the policeman, I bumped down it grabs a piece of wood off the street, and insists on coming in and looking at this motion picture. And Larry was wonderful in it as the policeman and eleri agreed to do it. And we of course, cashed in on Larry's acceptance by in trade papers and indeed everywhere else we could push it out. We said Laurence Olivier is the first to agree to play a cameo in the film that is being made specifically for the festival of Britain. Well, I think we then approached maybe it was Michael Redgrave and a couple of others who agreed that they would play and the idea was that they were paid not 25 pounds for the CAMEO. But 25 guineas because you bought racehorses with guineas. And so we were buying racehorses so that the fee was 25 guineas. And after we got about three or four, which we were very, very careful to, to publicize as much as we could, we would then start to get agents phoning us, saying, Hey, why isn't my client sound so in your film, and before we knew it, we had a roster of about 3025 or 30 really quite important star names in this country. And that was how we cost the film. Maria shell was the name of the girl to minute know the name. Yes, Maximilian.

Roy Fowler  1:39:38  

But, yes,

Ronald Neame  1:39:40  

you see, it's funny how these names suddenly come back. And I don't associate her with the magic box at all. She was the wife she played play down x, y. And it was no

Roy Fowler 1  1:39:51  

it was Catherine. Now Maria Shara MegaFon, right.

Ronald Neame  1:39:54  

And so we we Elstree Studios gave us a Very, very, very reasonable price for their stage space. But again, because of Robert Clark, and we made the film on an absolute shoestring. And you know, it wasn't bad. It wasn't a great film again, because it was a sort of hodgepodge. Really, I mean, you when you start writing cameo parts for 15 or 20 stars, it becomes a little bit unwieldy. The only one that wouldn't play that didn't accept and it always puzzled me was Alec Guinness, because I've done the two pictures with Alec “Oliver Twist” and “Great Expectations”, but he didn't want to do it. And he's a puzzling man in this area. He doesn't want to speak at Davis memorial service either, or doesn't want to do the introductory speech. He's a very strange, reticent, aleck that I think he's a nice man. And he's brilliant actor, of course. But anyway, so the magic box was made without any tremendous incident. There was a rush to get it through in time, because it was a grave danger of it coming out after the festival instead of follow the festival. But however, we did get it out in time. And I don't think it got great reviews, but it was a worthy effort. And John, and I became good friends, although his twin brother was always, you know, has the most important thing in his life. And during the time we were making this picture, I read a book, a novel by Arnold Bennett called the card about a con man living in the Midlands, a young con man who, who has a washerwoman for a mother, and who manages to make a small fortune at various seaside resorts doing all kinds of contracts. And I read this book and I thought this is a funny story, but it was owned by BPC It was owned by an in particular with Rob Clark was the representative and I think I think Walter Minecraft was still alive and he was there. And I thought, my goodness, this is a wonderful comedy for Alec Guinness. And I hadn't worked with Alex since produced “Oliver Twist”. And I sent the book to Alec and said, Eric, how would you like to play? January was his name denry was the main character who started off as a washerwoman son and finished up as the mayor of the town. I mean, it's, that's that's the story on a postcard, as they say. And Alec liked it. And he said, Yes, I'd like to do this. And I managed to get an option on it for a very, very small amount of money from a VPC from Robert Clark. And, at the same time, the  Rank Organisationwe're just beginning to reemerge after the shutdown under the leadership as far as production was concerned of Earl, St. John and I took the book to URL and said how about making a comedy without Guinness and there wasn't John said well, if you can get the rights off a BPC Yes, we'd be interested. And I must say Robert Clark, bless him. sold me the or me but sold not me but the  Rank Organisationunder its new name. The rights to the to the card. Now, I had not really I still remained friends with Eric Ambler. But we hadn't worked together since the debacle of passionate friends. But I thought I know that that Eric is the best man to write the screenplay. And so I went to Eric and I said, I know we had a disastrous really association with passionate friends. But what about doing a screenplay for us? For John and I? That's when I say ask because by now John Brown had joined me as producer and John Brown and I had become a producer, director relationship. And so the  Rank Organisationgot the rights. And Eric wrote the screenplay. And I directed we made a very six This will commonly be Glynis John's, who I still know today. And that's an interesting one because I first worked with Glennis on a quote a quickie at Wembley, which we've talked about earlier, when she was 14. And in the same film was Roddy McDowell, who was aged eight. I may have mentioned this. Oh, yes. Yeah. But again, I so I re met Glynnis, who played in it? And a little singer girl. Yes. But you look to the to the clock. And it was a very, very happy picture, indeed. And it was, it was wonderful for me in a way because it really reunited Eric Amber and I, as friends on a on a project together, after all the horrendous things that had happened on the passionate friends. And was, I think, quite a successful picture. And by the way, is still occasionally shown today.

Roy Fowler 1  1:46:13  

Did you ever skirt around with the passionate friend situation? Or was it just never I

Ronald Neame  1:46:18  

mentioned it, I think I have a feeling that Eric feels a little unhappy and a little guilty about it. Because Eric didn't stand up for his own scripted anyway, he was so shattered, that he didn't make any effort to defend what he'd written. And I did mention it to add it to Eric once a few years ago. And I I said, and he said, Oh, well, Ronnie, those kinds of things are best forgotten. I mean, that's his feeling about it. And who knows? He probably is right.

Roy Fowler 1  1:46:55  

But it's still unresolved? Well, I

Ronald Neame  1:46:59  

don't know with him. It may not be easy. I think maybe Eric has a little guilt there too, because he joined the the enemy history for a while. But I think I mean, I probably put too much importance upon that particular episode in my life because it was so shattering. But anyway, the card was made and was quite successful. And we will once more back in the the arms of the Rank Rank Organisation , albeit a very, very different situation. We no longer were the independent producers. We no longer sat around the table with Arthur. Now what followed after the card and this is where I completely go blank for the moment. Do you have the list? Like if you have the list, but you don't have it in chronological order? Do I

Roy Fowler 1  1:47:57  

think from this point on we do yes. Just pictures that just

Ronald Neame  1:48:08  

“Oliver Twist”, oh director take my life gold and send them out of the car. Oh, the million pound banknote. That's right. We completed the card. And I was always very bad at finding stories. And John was a little bit better than me, John Brown was more persistent reading and looking for things. And he read a short story by Mark Twain called a million pound banknote. And when I say a short story, I really mean a short story, it was about four or five pages of a man who is given a million pound banknote and told to bring it back intact in three months to the people who give it to him. And that if he does bring it back intact, then he will receive a big reward. Because apparently too old gentleman had had an argument, a lively argument as to whether one had to have money, or whether one just had to appear to have money in order to be successful. One fellow said, you have to have money. And that's it. The other fella said you have to appear to have money, and people will give you credit. And there you are. And so this was an an intellectual argument between two old gentleman, Wilfred Hyde white being one of the old gentleman and Ronnie scribing, the other one Ronald squab. And we brought in a young woman at that time woman who had made a few documentary films, but it never will. I've done a feature so far as I know, but was a bright girl, and who I think I met through the early meetings of the British Film Academy, which had just been formed. That's a whole section that I've missed out at the moment. That was when Alexander Korda decided that we should have an academy like America head. And he invited about 30 of us to Claridges. And I don't remember where this comes chronologically, but Alex invited about 30 of us to Claridges. And we sat around a table and there and then we formed the British Film Academy. And Eric, having started it, then delegate delegated, it was typical addict, Alex quarter, he got the thing going, and then he moved in to the background. And I think I'm right in saying that the first chairman of the of the first meetings of the British Film Academy, were was Michael Balcon. And all of us, all of us Rankcharacters, all became founding members of the British Film Academy, and it couldn't have been more than 25 or 30 of us, which of course, included all the 70 guilds out and include it all, independent, the independent production independent producers. And that in itself is quite a good story. I became after Mickey boeken did his year or two years, I became the chairman. I was the third, the second chairman of the British Film Academy. And by that time, we had interested Lord Louie Mountbatten. And he came in as a kind of patron. And I remember when “Great Expectations” won, which it did several Oscars for the film, all of which were accepted by Gene Simmons. She was the only one in Hollywood. And she kept going out up on the stage and accepting Academy Awards for the all the various people that won them on “Great Expectations”. I did not by the way, when one but there were about four, I think. And I remember very clearly that the that we wanted to celebrate this occasion, with the British Film Academy and Arthur rank, loneliness, or John Davis, maybe it was by now loaned us the Odeon, Leicester Square Between performances of the feature film. In other words, the way of the academy, we're allowed to take the stage for half an hour, whilst our awards were delivered. And I made a little speech being chairman and Lord Louie made a speech and that was it, where they literally it was the, the public that that were there, and anybody that wanted to be there as a member of the British Film Academy. It's fascinating going back to those days, we were a very elite little group, you had to have had very good credits to be able to join. But of course, it wasn't long before we had to, we had to realize that we were to elite and that we had to open up our membership. Otherwise, we couldn't exist. And then later, of course, television were admitted, which was a great blow to us all when we had to allow television to come and join this elite little group, but there isn't a wall of this digression is that one of the first members of the board of the British Film Academy was this young woman, writer director, Jill Craigie and Jill Craigie is Miss is and was Mrs. Michael foot. And I felt that Jill had a writing talent. And so John Brown and I brought in Jill and Jill, in in combination with the two of us, turn this five page short story into the film that became the man with a million in America. Go and the million pound banknote here. And we sent it to Gregory Peck. And Gregory Peck loved the idea. And he thought he would like to play it. But Rankthe  Rank Organisationhadn't got enough money to pay Gregory Peck, although, at the time, Gregory Peck salary was 75,000 pounds, I think that was his salary. And John Davis and, and, you know, one has to give credit where it's due. John Davis went to United Artists in New York, and said, Look, we can make a picture with Greg Peck, would you like to go in with us and pay Greg Peck salary as your contribution to the film. And they jumped at it, of course. And so we had Greg Peck, and this, this comedy, which was a, quite a successful film, and United Artists distributed it in America. And it had a very wide release, it had a bigger release, I suppose, than almost any film that had gone over, up until that time, of course, because of Gregory Peck. And, again, a very enjoyable picture with with with John Bryan with I never will remember the which camera man of the two of Ozzy Morris or gangrene photographed in one or the other. And it was a good stepping stone as far as I was concerned on the ladder. climbing up the ladder was struggling up the ladder to become a director that at least was recognized is sort of internationally as well as in England. And it helped my relationship with United Artists and after Krim, and all of that bunch, who were very pleased with that product and said, Ronnie, anything else that you'd like to bring us? We do need to glad to consider it. So that's the man with the million or the million pound note. Now. Let's see what was the next one. The man who never was now. Darryl, Zanuck wanted to encourage his new young son in law, whose name was Andrei Hakeem. And who was married to DEROS. second daughter, I think, has since died, and had bought the rights to

Ronald Neame  1:58:11  

a documentary book written by Ivor Montague about a true incident of the war. Were in which a body a dead body dressed as a courier with a briefcase, handcuffed to his ripped wrist containing false information from present from the allies as to where the landing was going to come. In Sicily,

Roy Fowler 1  1:58:50  

forgive me, I don't think it was either. I think it was another Montague wasn't it? But anyway, just because

Ronald Neame  1:58:55  

you and your monthly Yes. Who is either Montague's brother, I think grant right. And Darryl Zanuck had bought this book, which had been until very recently secret information. I mean, they War Office or whichever office ministry information or whatever, wouldn't release this, but they had to, because somebody else wrote a novel about it. So once the novel was written, they released the true story, which you and Montague had written. And so because of the million pound note, and because he heard about me, and because I'd been earlier visiting 20th Century Fox in America, they came to me to ask if I would direct it. And it was a lovely story. Fascinating story. But we needed a script. And so we went to now the problem name, novelist who wrote my own execution Oh, Nigel, Nigel Bolton. And Nigel had been very much involved in secret service during the war. And Nigel rotors have very good scripts indeed. And He also invented the second half of the story, which was fiction. The story is based upon false information, which the Germans accepted as truth. And the film added a whole section, which depicted the Germans being suspicious, and sending over a spy from Ireland to find out the validity. That was fiction. And a young man played the spy. More names. He was immediately snapped up Steven someone. Yeah, Stephen boy, he was immediately stepped snapped up by DeRozan and put under contract to 20th Century Fox, and played in Ben Hur, I think. But anyway, so Stephen Boyd played the part I had already cast it. And an agent called Dennis Fen tal phoned me up and said, Hey, there's one any one person that can play this part and that Steven biomass, and I'm very sorry, see, boy, nobody knew he just done a test for quarter. So I'm sorry, it's cast in this. He said, well see the test of Stephen Boyd in your am cast it and cast Stephen, I promise you. And indeed, I saw Stephen Boyd's test and I thought, my goodness, this is going to be, he's going to be an important young actor. And so I paid off the actor we'd already cast. And we engaged Steven Steven Boyd. And we went to Spain. Because this body, that was going to be the foil that was going to confuse the Germans was taken by submarine to just off the coast of whoever, in Spain near Gibraltar. And what they did was they surfaced in the middle of the night. And they slid this body into the water. And the body floated to shore and landed on the beach, and was discovered, of course, early in the morning by Spanish authorities, including the briefcase. And Spain, although they were supposed to be neutral at that time, were very, very much on the side of Germany. And the Spanish authorities allowed this briefcase to be handed over to Germany to the Germans who swallowed the whole story and altered their strength from one part of Sicily to another part because of the information contained in this briefcase, which was false. And it was so well done. The real spy story part of it not I'm not talking about our film. Now I'm talking about the whole of the plot, which you and Montague had thought up that when I went to visit the management of the Rio Tinto mines, which are located in whoever in Spain, the one of the gentlemen and directors of Rio Tinto showed me an expense sheet in the petty cash book. And it had an entry wreath for a British officer sound so whatever his name was, because they gave donated a wreath to this British officer who who had floated ashore and they buried him in whoever cemetery and he is still there, and he's still regarded as a British genuine British officer. And we actually used his grave for the gray I'm in the film. And it was a wonderful piece of espionage if you remember the movie very clearly, yeah, it was a good little movie.

Roy Fowler 1  2:05:11  

It was interesting about Clifton Webb who extraordinarily it was, was it?

Ronald Neame  2:05:15  

Well, yes, Darryl Zanuck insisted that we must have a name that would could please America that could be known in America. And he said Clifton can play a British officer without any problem. Because he's very, very British, although isn't American. And indeed, Clifton was and Clifton came over, sent over by Darryl Zanuck, and I met him. And I liked him very much. But Clifton had a mustache. And one of the first things I had to say to Clifton was, I'm sorry, you have to shave the mustache of Clifton, because in the British Navy, you cannot wear a mustache. And Clifton said, Well, I'm very sorry, Ronnie. But I then have to get back to Hollywood and you have to recast it because I cannot play and will not play without my mustache. And we really reached a crisis one was before he'd arrived. But then of course, we realized or somebody told us that you could wear a mustache if you also wore a beard. That was legitimate. So Clifton said, Okay, I will grow a beard. And that is indeed what he has in the film. He was a great character. I took him immediately to Clifton. I liked him very, very much. And although in fact he was gay, he was homosexual. It didn't come through, not in in any serious way. And he was suspended, but he was cranky in some ways. I mean, for example, when we went to splain, somebody had warned him that under no circumstances should he drink the water. And in particular, nor should he eat any salads, or any food, because he would immediately get a GP, tummy and dysentery and god knows what else. So a Clifton insisted that all his food should be taken from England, including the water. So a great big crate was organized of Clifton's goodies all bought from Fortnum and Mason's. And we got the camera equipment and the lenses and the film all that went through customs beautifully into Spain. But Clifton's crate, cause endless problems, because the Spanish just could not understand why we were importing water. They had perfectly good bottled water there. But we were importing Clifton's water from, from Fortnum and Mason's. Now, the payoff to this little story was that the first day on location at funnily enough, the cemetery where this character this had been buried. The unit we're given a spended lunch, we all sat around, we were had a marquee, and we sat around a long table, and the Spanish served up a delicious meal. And Clifton was there and beside Clifton, on the floor was his crate with all his Fortnum and Mason stuff. And we were all eating the Spanish fluid and Clifton was eating Fortnum and Mason's food, and they drinking the Fortnum and Mason's water. Well, the only person on that unit that became sick was Clifton. I don't know if some fly must have landed on his caviar or something. And he became very badly ill with dysentery for two days and nobody else on the unit felt bad at all. So ever since then I've drunk the water the country I go into. Then the other thing which was a great embarrassment with Clifton Clifton tended to forget his lines we did have problems with with with fluffing, and he did cause me a certain amount of harassment by not remembering his lines, but apart from that, he really was very good, except that we had some sequences in Southampton where he had to go in a launch as a high ranking officer in the Navy, British Navy. He had to go in a launch to a battleship and go up the steps of the battleship to the deck and be piped to board. That was the scene. And Clifton did not tell us or had not told us that he was a afraid of heights. He was petrified of height. But he didn't tell us and we didn't know. So we come to start shooting this scene. And Clifton gets out of the motor launch onto the steps of the leading up the side of the, of the battleship onto the deck and gets up two flights of this staircase that goes backwards and zigzags up to the deck and suddenly freezes and cannot move, either up or down. Just freezes. And we said, you know, we can cut and I said, Tifton, what's the matter? I cannot move. I am here until somebody removes me, I cannot go up. And I cannot go down. And the entire British navy, it seemed to me we're all watching this ridiculous incident of this actor in uniform, not able to move up or down on the side of a battleship. And we had to, we had to learn a crane with a net. And we had to put Clifton into the net, and hold him up onto the deck. It was a very embarrassing scene

Roy Fowler 1  2:11:14  

can sympathize because it must be terrifying to have that kind of Oh, absolutely

Ronald Neame  2:11:18  

terrifying. I mean, there was nothing the poor man could do.

Roy Fowler 1  2:11:24  

Clifton, wherever this fear of heights, I forgot. Yeah, it is. And you were saying the things that one does remember? Well,

Ronald Neame  2:11:30  

one, one whenever I see a film now that I made a long time ago, I watched the film and I'm I remember things about the film, which really probably have nothing to do with the actual making of the film itself, except almost always some weird episode emerges. And I think oh my goodness, I remember that. And they're usually frivolous things or things that that are not important in relation to the film itself. But the man and never was was a successful picture here. It did not do big business in Hollywood. It was to British, even with glyphs and web. But it's still shown today. Well, I saw it in the States. And it was well promoted, as well promoted. But I do remember reading variety, I think when it said the man who never was almost isn't at the Roxy or whatever the film, whatever the theatre was showing

Roy Fowler 1  2:12:36  

the title is, in a sense has gone into the language. Yes,

Ronald Neame  2:12:40  

it has. Yes. And it is still shown today. And it shows on American television today, too. Which is a perfect example of what I mean about here is Arthur Rankstruggling and fighting to get his film shown in America. And now 50 years later, they're all being shared and enjoyed.

Roy Fowler 1  2:13:04  

And that's true of so many miniseries and yeah, TV and cable stuff.

Ronald Neame  2:13:09  

Yes, upstairs, downstairs and all this kind of stuff, right? They America, Americans have learned to like British, the British product,

Roy Fowler 1  2:13:18  

I suppose PBS has a certain amount to do with that the British NBC series, because they are very

Ronald Neame  2:13:24  

highly Yes. Very, very much PBS certainly.

Roy Fowler 1  2:13:29  

Now, before we continue going down the films, it occurs to me first of all, a key period in the industry here. Have we properly covered the collapse of the  Rank Organisationand the emergence of John Davis and the reconstruction two thing I touched upon in no

Ronald Neame  2:13:51  

baps we haven't. All I can say is that as that in addition to the films that we were making, and of course, we were a little arrogant, we were we believed we were making the the important films, as there was so anxious to have product that he did give he did hand out a assignments as it were, to various other producers who shall be nameless, why should they be nameless? Because they turned out of not a very good product, a lot of

Roy Fowler  2:14:24  

Sydney box. So

Ronald Neame  2:14:25  

for what was Sydney made, run of the mill British pictures that were really primarily aimed at a British audience. Sydney didn't really aim. I don't think it's an international audience. The doctor series and all of that. Yes, they were they were colloquial. Really? Yes. I don't think that that Sydney was was considered to be somebody who was who was

Roy Fowler 1  2:14:53  

you wouldn't say he was a key factor in losing money for you know

Ronald Neame  2:14:58  

on the country. I think that Sidney's product made money but it made money because he made them very, very cheaply for the domestic market

Roy Fowler 1  2:15:07  

was curious to try and suss out who lost the archers by and large made money didn't know for rank. Yes,

Ronald Neame  2:15:15  

I think the archers were was almost as successful as we are. FRankand Sydney a little bit made pictures more for the home markets and Trinian's was very much,

Roy Fowler 1  2:15:30  

but that that was an elder I think wasn't the series. I think the Pinewood stuff. Well, no, the films that I would remember would well there was there was green for Danger, danger and green for danger. Yes. Sort of domestic films, but I'm quite large budget. So I suppose.

Ronald Neame  2:15:51  

Yes, largest budget budgets. But they were they were our films that that the Wessex was a failure. Wessex was yes, that was the indera. Failure perhaps is the wrong word. But they didn't catch on as well. And then there were several other producing elements totally to Greenville, I think, and quite a few others that all sort of jumped on the bank bandwagon at that particular time, I

Roy Fowler 1  2:16:22  

suppose the really cataclysmic one was Caesar and Cleopatra. Yes,

Ronald Neame  2:16:26  

that that really did that. That was Gabi, of course. And that, that was Gabby's Waterloo, as far as, as rang was concerned, but there was a, we were, we were as guilty as the, in the short term, we were as guilty as anybody else. Because our pictures were not making money either. Not enough. I mean, to bring back 350,000 pounds, on “Great Expectations” at that time, was a difficult proposition. And even films like  “Brief Encounter”  “Brief Encounter” cost, I think, 180,000. And that I know for certainty, didn't come into profit for probably seven, eight, maybe even nine years. So at the time that the shutdown happened, they were all of them in the red, and how much we may criticize John Davis for clipping our wings and stopping us, for which, of course, we disliked him intensely. He there was a certain short term justification.

Roy Fowler 1  2:17:40  

Well, would it be fair, and this is without putting words in your mouth? Would it be fair to say it wasn't so much what he did, but the way he did it?

Ronald Neame  2:17:48  

Well, he never cared. One felt that he didn't care about film. One felt that he saw for the Rank Rank Organisation , a much more commercial operation in in a quite different field. He I really don't think that he believed films were a profitable product. And he was interested primarily in, in turning the  Rank Organisationinto a profitable, profitable  Rank Organisation . So although to us he was the villain of the piece, because he stopped us in our tracks just when we were beginning to feel that that we were, we were there forever. He stopped us short, because also because he was pushed into the situation by the National provincial bank. So we didn't like him very much because he was stopping us doing what we wanted to do. And Asa was sad, but had to concede that John was right. But we were not making money we were losing money.

Roy Fowler 1  2:19:04  

How did that manifest itself in the meetings was suddenly Arthur less apparent? Did suddenly Davis become the mouthpiece.

Ronald Neame  2:19:15  

It sort of stopped. Arthur suddenly took a backseat as as the national provincial bank came forward, and the National provincial bank insisted that John Davis take took over so when it suddenly all stopped, suddenly, one minute we were all there making these pictures and the next minute, I noticed and but uh, but I must say, in fairness to John, I, you know, I had fights with him. And I became a Rankoutsider, as we all did.

Roy Fowler 1  2:19:56  

That started when how early did that Stop. That

Ronald Neame  2:20:01  

started just around about that after after the passionate friends. And then I'm calling golden salamander and all of that they it all happened around about the same time. Madeleine was another nail in the coffin. And that end it happened pretty quickly. I mean it once it's it happened because the national provincial bank simply said, Alright, stop this or else

Roy Fowler  2:20:29  

sorry. I

Roy Fowler  2:20:31  

mean Rankoutsiders. When did that start? Well rank

Ronald Neame  2:20:34  

outside has started. So far as I'm concerned that the end of golden salamander already was in existence the Rankguards. Well, we weren't called Rankoutsiders and that particular time, but too much later on. We all We all joined the club,

Roy Fowler 1  2:20:50  

how formal or informal was that? It was a dining club,

Ronald Neame  2:20:53  

was it? No, no, no. We never went to that extent. No, not really. But I would just used to say, I mean, I used to say, well, of course, I'm a Rankoutsider now.

Roy Fowler 1  2:21:04  

It's somewhere I've read that people didn't meet and there was a dinner one night, Davis was invited. And he said, I knew why you've invited me and I promise you, I will create further members for you. Now. Is that apocryphal?

Ronald Neame  2:21:22  

Yes. I think so. Right? I don't think quite frankly, Davis had the identity. John had a very great sense of humour. I think he would have, and I'm sure he must have heard about Rankthe Rankoutsiders, but he would have regarded it as an insult in a way. He wouldn't have seen the funny side of it, I'm afraid.

Roy Fowler 1  2:21:45  

Would it possibly be fair to say that Arthur lost heart at this day?

Ronald Neame  2:21:51  

Yes. Arthur gave up. He he tried. And he really tried very, very hard. But he was getting older. And his real love was flower still, you know? I mean, really? Oh, yes. If you really want it to get off looking excited about anything, you'd only had to mention the flour mills. And he would get off on a tangent away from films and talk about flour and bread and all of this because that that was really the thing that he cared about most that and his religious films, knows

Roy Fowler 1  2:22:25  

astonished around that time. This is a fairly relevant I trust this relevant anecdote that I was coming what? eastbound on the Queen Elizabeth. With Sydney box. We weren't traveling together, but he was on board. He told me a long and extremely funny rather wicked story about the astonished heart and how they fired Michael Redgrave because Noah was determined to play the part. But even then everything was referred to Rankand decisions were made. They had to go and justify.

Ronald Neame  2:22:58  

When When did the astonish heart happen in relation to what we've been told?

Unknown Roy Fowler  2:23:04  

Early 50s

Ronald Neame  2:23:05  

Was it is? Well, where the hell was I then mop die? Oh, well, it was I wasn't there. I was in doing the bath the festival of Britain film at Elstree because that was made the downstream were already an outsider. Yes, that's right. But then very quickly came back, you see, because Elton John, brought us all back in. But it was in a different way, a different situation.

Roy Fowler 1  2:23:31  

Well, then that leads us on to two people, one we haven't really talked about at all mentioned but not discussed. And that's Walter, Microsoft. Well, what you said about him,

Ronald Neame  2:23:41  

not really Walter was very, very early on Walter Microsoft. And he was the story editor, the head of the story department at Elstree. And he very, very early on had a little roster of writers that were writing scripts and screen players, original stories and and screenplays from books and things at Elstree at a time when Elstree were making quite a lot of pictures in the silent days and in the early talkie days. And I know for example, there was a writer, the father of young John Howard Davis, Jack Davis, and Dorothy Davis. They were under contract. And I have a feeling that Sidney Gilliat And FRankLord they were also under contract

Roy Fowler 1  2:24:30  

Microsoft work for Sidney's father on a newspaper as a film critic. Oh, really? I try. And that was the connection. That's

Ronald Neame  2:24:37  

right. Yes, that's right. But But, but that was that was they were very, very early days that

Roy Fowler 1  2:24:44  

you've mentioned him several times. And he became what a functionary at Elstree, he lost his power, presumably that was

Ronald Neame  2:24:52  

he became a sort of, he was sort of I don't know whether he was actually on the board of directors, but he was, he was recognized As the head of the storage Department and in charge of projects as gave the decision as to whether they should be made or not. Because another thing that we haven't mentioned going back, you've seen the sound much back in those days was when British and dominion studios burnt down. Yes. That was very dramatic. I lived in Radlett at that time, the little house in red at about four miles from Elstree and next door to me, the studio manager, physical Hector coward. studio manager, then was British and dominion studios, he lived. And suddenly, one o'clock in the morning, he phoned me up and he said, Ronnie, look out of your window, and I looked at him a window and the eye could see the horizon, glowing red. And he said, I can't stop my car, the studios on fire, would you please drive me to the studio? And I said, Well, of course. And so I drove at car to Elstree, and there was this big blaze. British and dominion was well alight, and Joe Grossman, who we've mentioned before, who was the head of the fire brigade that got all these houses out. But unfortunately, it turned them all on together and was like a fish in the ocean. I mean, none of the water reached the buildings, let alone put the fire. And the real fire brigade had not yet arrived. And I looked at this place, and I thought, oh, my god, somebody should be filming this. This is madness. We should be filming it. And just to that moment, I ran into Jack Cardiff. who at that time was like I was a junior cameraman. I said, Jack, we should we should film this week. We really should. And so the two of us broke into the camera room at in the, in our part of the studio, which was British International pictures, which wasn't on fire. And we got out of intim camera. Well, both Jack and I were both in fact, we were lighting cameraman by then. And so we got this camera out. And we found a magazine with film. But neither of us could load the camera. And I said we can't you loaded Jack Jason No, I can't load it. I can't load the Vinten. And there was a snotty nose little boy of about 15 That was a runner or something. And we said hey, can you load a vintage camera? He said yes, of course I can. So he came over and he loaded the camera. And the three of us put on it we put on the long focus lens. And we got a lot of film of the fire. And we became quite important for 24 hours because the next day in the day they express there was a picture of me, which had been photographed that morning early in the morning of the following the fall of me with my camera, and two girls in front, I think and the caption was young Ronald name. The cameraman who filmed the great fire at Elstree Studios. And then there was an article in the Daily Express that talked about running him and his boy, Jack Cardiff. And I remember Jack Cardiff was very, very insulted and D then phoned me up and said, Ronnie, I am not your boy. And I said, Jack, I don't I had nothing to do with this. And the funny thing is that when Sydney Samuelsson moderated and got a whole lot of material for my retrospective, which was only eight months or 10 months ago. Learn to hold on the screen. There was footage of the big far British students he'd found from somewhere around mazing. Absolutely. And of course, British Dominion burned down and that was the end of vision dominion.

Roy Fowler 1  2:29:09  

The studios were contiguous where they separated by any kind of perimeter fence or whatever were there. They

Ronald Neame  2:29:15  

were even in fact joined two stages of VIP was joined on to British and dominion so it was the agenda how they contain the fire, but they never it never got over to VIP. But as I think I said to you earlier, at some point, Walter, Microsoft said, I'm sorry, your negative view of your last picture isn't on that lot, Ronnie, because it was a bad picture. If a company was and they could have got insurance on it.

Roy Fowler 1  2:29:44  

We're fairly young as a story, which is amusing because someone called him to say that there had been a fire but they managed to save the cameras. He was working on July the fall.

Ronald Neame  2:29:55  

Were afraid he was working at British and dominion. I think at the time. Yes, he was With Wilcox, yes, because I was very funny. I mean since then, I mean that hundreds of years ago, and Freddie and I are very good friends when we meet. And he was my retrospective and but I remember that we all felt at VIP that we were underpaid, that British and dominion paid much better salaries. Quarter was BND at that time. And Freddie was there, one of their chief cameramen. And I remember going over to BND from VIP, and asking if I could please see Mr. Freddie young and man at the Gates who who wants to see him and I said, what Ronald name if I just could have a word with him. And the message came back from failure that he was too busy to see me for at the moment, but maybe I could get in touch with him later. And I was so hurt. I thought, Oh, dear, how unkind and you know, ever since then, I hate turning down people if they come to see me soon, because I don't suppose Freddie gave it a second thought did was unimportant to him. But to me, it was a it was a rejection, which I felt quite strongly. He's always had

Roy Fowler 1  2:31:19  

that reputation for being what a little remote and distant and hard to approach as heavy as it may be. So the fact he was always Mr. Young. Yes, that's right. And yet, when faced with that, he says that was nothing to do with him. It was no I think talks impose that.

Ronald Neame  2:31:37  

That's what pretty I think he was probably just very retiring. And very quiet.

Roy Fowler 1  2:31:42  

And again, I why I think people in those times were rather insecure innocence. They had great responsibility. For this case. He

Ronald Neame  2:31:52  

left school at 14. Yes. Relying man.

Roy Fowler 1  2:31:54  

Yeah. And suddenly you're in charge of people. Yes. Great responsibilities. Yes. I think one has to be somewhat different is not the word but selfconscious has? Yes, I think probably true. They were very different times. Oh, boy. He's

Ronald Neame  2:32:14  

six years. Yes. Certainly we're. Well, I don't know maybe we've come to a point where she break if we've dealt with the Rankoutsiders and John Davidson. I don't think there's much more to say really, quite honestly. I've seen him once or twice since but not to really talk to. As I say, I had the episode when I came back from Hollywood the first time which we talked about it lunched and we definitely talked about it here on the tape, when John asked me, well, that's, that's another. That's a whole drama that we've missed. It was my second trip over to America when I made the seventh sin without Anna Parker, starring Elena Parker. And, but that's a whole

Roy Fowler 1  2:33:14  

drama. Shall we resume with that, then if that's embarking on a whole new set is

Ronald Neame  2:33:19  

embarking on a whole new thing really? slots? It slots in some ways to what we've already talked about?

Roy Fowler 1  2:33:27  

Yes. Well, would it be a conclusion to what we've done? So far?

Ronald Neame  2:33:31  

Not really. No, I think it's true. I think it's not so much an opening. I think it's a sort of other dramas on the way that one can slot in maybe at some point because contract Yeah, cetera. Because there's, there's no doubt there are there are all kinds of things that gradually they come back to me and but by the time I've really remembered them, we've moved on. And we are doing it chronologically, because this

Roy Fowler 1  2:34:01  

is lovely stuff of history. So the more that the merrier. Yes.

Ronald Neame  2:34:06  

Well, I think we should sort of it's what it's called a for right. Now. Once

Roy Fowler 1  2:34:11  

again, my thanks. I'll conclude them with this session. So thank you.

Roy Fowler  2:34:21  

Resuming on the second of October, we'd almost finished with the man who never was. But there's something to add to

Ronald Neame  2:34:28  

that. Well, I don't know to what extent we did talk about what the story is about. Did we did we cover the story covered the story? Well, one of the most important aspects of it was that we wanted to fool the Germans in into believing that this body, which was washed ashore, off the coast of wherever we were, it was important that the Germans who would of course, and the span and the Spanish you were on neutral, but on the German side, it was important that this body should be authentic in the sense that he is supposed to have drowned at sea. And when you drown you get water in your lungs. And in, in fact, not in the film. But in fact, the people concerned with this subterfuge went to see Bernard Spilsbury. Who was the public. What do you call it? Yes, pathologist.

Roy Fowler  2:35:39  

Yeah, I

Ronald Neame  2:35:40  

think it's perfect pathologist as the right name. But Spilsby at the time was the official for the British government. And so his advice was sought as to how this so called drowned buddy would would appear to be authentic. And Spilsbury said you got to find a body the body of a man who has died of double pneumonia, because that is the only way that the lungs would be filled with water. And so not only did they have to find a dead body that they can dress up and disguise as a an officer in the British service. But they also had to find somebody who had had died of double pneumonia, which wasn't an easy task. However it was found and that that all that part of the story, of course, is absolutely true. Is the most enjoyable film to make it looks rather effortless in a way that is very, very easy to read

Roy Fowler  2:36:57  

in a book somewhere. So presumably someone has written an account in the film. There

Ronald Neame  2:37:01  

are the story of spills. Well, you see the book, there were two books written. One was the authentic book about the actual event. And the other was a novel based upon the event. And the novel came out first. And only when the novel came out based upon the true event, was you and Montague allowed to write and disclose the actual event. So there were two books that told more or less the same story. One is fiction. One is fact. You had cooperation from the circle of authorities? Oh, yes. Yes, very much.

Roy Fowler  2:37:44  

Occasionally or frequently are very sensitive. Well, they

Ronald Neame  2:37:47  

were to start off with they said they would, by disclosing what we did, it will stop us from ever doing a similar thing again. But particularly is as nobody knew about it. However, that was overruled when the novel came out because it had been disclosed anyway. Yes. So that I suppose covers I think we covered in the last interview. The fact that the naval commander, what's his What was his name, the star a different way. Had to grow a beard as well as his moustache. I think we covered that, didn't we? Yes,

Unknown Roy Fowler  2:38:35  

she did it first. reluctantly.

Ronald Neame  2:38:36  

Yes, that's right. So now, what did we say about the seven sins? We

Unknown Roy Fowler  2:38:44  

haven't come to?

Ronald Neame  2:38:45  

I six on the list. Well, seven sin was a great big mistake, on my part, one of the biggest mistakes in my career. It was a very, very bad screenplay that was sent to me from Hollywood. That was going to star Elena Parker. And I was asked whether I would like to direct it. And while it's realizing that it was a bad screenplay, I nevertheless was so keen to make a film in Hollywood, that I accepted the assignment. When I got over there, they put another writer on with me. And we endeavoured to improve the the screenplay. And I think we did. And we both went to Hong Kong, which was where the film was set. And we chose locations and we chose various members of the unit, et cetera, et cetera. And Elena Park crime I met and I liked her very much and we agreed to make the Picture. Now, MGM where the film was made was in the throes of management changes. They were in one of their their situations where one management was going out and up and on and on them. And the company where they really didn't know whether they wanted to cancel films or whether they wanted to go on with what they'd already started. And there was great political turmoil in the studio.

Roy Fowler  2:40:29  

Was this the point with Shari? Yes.

Ronald Neame  2:40:32  

I think now, I think Dhoni Sherry had just come in. I think it was the I think he had just moved into the two. But I may be wrong about that.

Roy Fowler  2:40:43  

Well, I've got

Roy Fowler 2  2:40:47  

actually, I can't read that it looks like 57. But it can't be 5752.

Ronald Neame  2:40:54  

I should think it's 57. So sure, it must have gone by then Sherry left. No, because it was Sherry that I had to deal with Tori. Sherry was the was the head of the studio at the time, well, that he was on his way, well, then he probably was on his way out. Anyway, at that time, there was this, MGM had this very, very strong lady editor, Margaret booth. And Margaret Booth was sort of pretty well running production, as she was very powerful and very strong. And I suddenly found when after we'd been shooting for two or three days, that my rushes were being seen by Margaret booth before I saw them. And indeed, sequences were being cut. without me even knowing, in other words, the Margaret booth and the studio, virtually were sort of doing whatever they wanted to. And also, there was very strong and very heavy criticism of the rushes. Looking back, I think very unfairly, they were not used to perhaps that time, the understatement of the British type of production. And they, they, they wanted to, I guess they wanted more flamboyance. They kept on sort of saying to me, Ronnie, it's not you it's not exciting enough, etcetera, etcetera. And I very, very quickly realized that I was in a pretty dangerous situation, because I was all by myself and Englishmen in in a major Hollywood studio, in the throes of management change. itself, the studio being in an awful muddle. And, quite frankly, thinks things went from bad to worse, and I began to lose confidence in myself. I thought, Oh, my goodness, I I obviously, something's gone wrong with me, I am not on top of it anymore. I really, really felt as though I was no good. It's very easy to destroy a person's confidence in themselves, you know, very easy and very, very cruel. But certainly my confidence in myself was destroyed to the point where I wasn't doing good work. And my agent bird Ellenberg, William Morris, asked me to go and see him on my way home at the end of about 10 days shooting, and said, Ronnie, I think you've taken enough. I think you should resign. Now I know that what he was really saying to me was Ronnie, you should resign because if you don't identify. And so I resigned from the picture. And the picture stopped shooting for two or three days. And the reason that I tell this story is that something very, what I call very wonderful happened. At the same time, as I was making this small picture. George kuko was directing Legos with que Kendall, in the same studio. I had never met George kuko, who at this time, was the leading director at MGM. And the evening that I resigned, needless to say, and deep depression, and quite convinced that my career come to an end. The telephone rang and my wife answered, and she said, Oh, yes, just a moment and she said Mr. George Cook was on the phone. And I've never met him. And I was puzzled. So I went to the phone and I said, Hello. And he says that rather name and I said, Yes. He said, Well, my name is George Kukoc. I said, oh, good evening, Mr. kukula. He said, I imagine you're feeling pretty depressed this evening, aren't you? I said, Well, that's an understatement. He said, Well, that's why I'm phoning you. He said, it's not going to make any difference to your career at all. This incident, this episode, I do assure you, you do not need to worry about it. And I speak with great authority, because I was the director that was taken off Gone With the Wind. And I've have I met him many times after that. But I thought what a wonderful thing to do. He didn't know me from Adam. And yet he went to the trouble to phone me and tell me not to worry not to be depressed. And I thought, what a generous what a warm, what a lovely thing to them. So whenever I saw him after that, I always said, George, I'll always remember your kindness to me, and I was dead. And the film was taken over by Judy Garland's husband, Minelli, Vincent Minnelli, who was a contract director at MGM, and he completed it. But he didn't want to take credit. And somebody had to have the credit as director. So I, in fact, have the directors credit on it. I didn't want it. But I couldn't do anything about it. These

Roy Fowler  2:46:45  

days, it will be able to smoothly presumably, it's an interesting and a very sad period. Because really your fortunes coincided with what was the decline of the almost the end of the decline of the old movie factories, wasn't it? That was the turmoil.

Ronald Neame  2:47:02  

Yes, yes, it was really. But you see, again, this is Edith Evans used to say to me, around Pong, when one door closes, another one opens. And this is absolutely true. And one door closes another one does, because in variety, in the next day, it said that Ronald even stepped out of owing to artistic differences from the certain sin. And this was picked up I think, by The Daily Mail here in England. I was still nursing my wounds over there. And John Bryan found me who had been my partner for on the earlier pictures that we've mentioned. And John said, Ray, I'm going to produce a picture of Florida rank, a call Wyndham's way, and Peter Finch is going to play in it. I gather, you fallen out with your American friends. So why don't you come back to England and direct it? Before

Roy Fowler  2:48:09  

we come on to women's? Yeah, maybe? Well, a little on that period in Hollywood. The man who never was was made for Fox? Yes, that's right. Shoe had what a separate?

Ronald Neame  2:48:21  

No, it wasn't Fox British actually. No, it was, it was. It was an independent picture in a kind of a way. It was 20th Century Fox. But it was backed with some kind of finance by Darryl Zanuck’s wife, DeRozan ex wife, Virginia, Virginia was was sort of part of it because when I met her later, she used to refer to our picture. And she must have been involved somehow or other. I don't know whether it was a partnership thing with Dara with Darryl Zanuck and Fox. But it was a 20th Century Fox picture. And Zanuck was head of the studio at that time.

Roy Fowler  2:49:05  

So what you had relationships with zona? Yes,

Ronald Neame  2:49:09  

I met Santa. In fact, I took a first cut of the picture over to Paris where he was. And he ran it for me. And it was then that I realized what a a good filmmaker Darryl Zanuck was. He had been I imagined an editor I don't know. But I was tremendously impressed because we ran the picture and he had a secretary sitting next to him. I'm now back on the man and never was. And he, I mean, I'm again, I'd see him just touch his secretary like that. And we went through the film. I suppose he probably touched her 20 or 30 times and she just made a little note of where he touched her. And then afterwards, he said, All right, let's start from the beginning and he ran through the film and The Secretary reminded him of the various points. And he made his comments. And they were very, very sound. They were the comments of somebody who really knew about filmmaking, what specifically was editing, trimming, tightening, various, all the various things that one does after a first cut. And I thought, my goodness, this man knows what he's talking about. And which brings me on to a more general subject. The the heads of studios in those days, they really did know about Phil. And it said, because today, most of the heads of studios don't really know about, or lawyers or lawyers. And yes, it seems to have changed. It's no longer that

Roy Fowler  2:50:55  

really was what I was going to ask you about. First of all, the contrast between Fox and Metro Metro. I think both studios were then in considerable turmoil. Because all of what was happening to Hollywood. Yes.

Ronald Neame  2:51:08  

But of course, Fox, considerably later Fox got into practically closed down for ages.

Roy Fowler  2:51:18  

Well, they all had the disasters at one time or

Ronald Neame  2:51:21  

another. Yes, they were they all did. That's true. But this was this was very early on. And Fox at that time, it was pretty was pretty busy still and pretty active. And of course, the man who never was, was made here in England. Darryl  Zanuck son in law hachimura. produced it with his daughter

Roy Fowler  2:51:48  

was a producer, or was he just there was a he

Ronald Neame  2:51:51  

was a sort of Playboy type. Yes. Nice man. I liked him. He died a few years ago heart attack and his wife there. His daughter also died. It's extraordinary. They were both very young. When they died, she drink a great deal of money. Did she was she a heavy drinker? She probably did was at the time that I knew that he probably got worse.

Roy Fowler  2:52:15  

Well, I was wondering about the contrast, if any, between the way of production was handled here and going into the jungle, well

Ronald Neame  2:52:23  

laid out the jungle of Hollywood was was horrendous at that time. I mean, I was very glad to get away from the picture. It was it was desperately unhappy. And nobody seemed to be in charge except Margaret booth.

Roy Fowler  2:52:40  

Yes, you have to produce a little Lewis.

Ronald Neame  2:52:47  

And was David Lewis, the producer on that, which is listed as being the producer is? Well, he must have been I didn't see much of him, I must say. And he probably was the you know, under the direction of, of the studio management. It was a very weird set up the whole thing. And I was well away from it. There's no doubt about the

Roy Fowler  2:53:12  

reason I asked about David Lewis. I wonder if you ever encountered James Whale, who was still alive at that point? No. To this life? I think this

Ronald Neame  2:53:23  

was his boyfriend. Oh, really? How that could well be. But no, no, I did not. killed himself. Oh, really? No, I didn't have much to do with storage. Don't Sherry I liked he, I think he was probably misplaced in the job that he was in but I was in too much of a personal turmoil to eat to be too much aware of, of the studio politics and what was going on. As far as I was concerned, he was a man who sat behind the great big desk in the filberg building and was very pleasant and very nice. Right,

Roy Fowler  2:54:07  

so I guess that does bring us to

Ronald Neame  2:54:08  

Well, then. I remember we stayed for Christmas I went to look into but then I came back. And John Davis who had who had not particularly liked any of us, it from the old days, we as individuals, as well as and collectively as extravagant.

Roy Fowler  2:54:39  

Upsetting is tidy.

Ronald Neame  2:54:41  

Yes, that's right. He nevertheless was very, very much in the saddle when I came back. And he, to my surprise, really approved John Bryan asking me if I would direct Wyndham's way and indeed, he arranged After lunch John Bryan and and John Davis and myself in the lunch presumably was to cement the RE cement a relationship with a guy and was supposed to be a friendly occasion. And we remember we had it in in the Savoy grill. And John and I got there first and then John, John Brown and I got there first and then John Davis arrived. And right from the word go from beginning of lunch, John Davis, picked at mostly at me

End of Part 3