Martin Gibbons

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Speaker 1  0:00  
This is interview number 812 Pradesh entertainment history project interview with Martin Gibbons interviewed by Derrick thread goal and the copyright of this is vested in the British entertainment history project.

Speaker 2  0:13  
I'm Martin Gibbons, I'm president of the Tony Hancock Appreciation Society. And I'm happy for this to be uploaded without restrictions. I was born in 1962. In Maidstone, I've lived in Maidstone all of my life. And I'm here to talk about the Tony Hancock Appreciation Society, and the life and works of Tony Hancock and the wonderful legacy that he has left behind.

Derek Threadgall  0:39  
Right, Martin, let's go into the society, can you tell us when the Society was formed, how it was formed, etc.

Speaker 2  0:52  
Yes, I can say that the Society was formed in 1976. Tony, sadly died in 1968, and the BBC have repeated some radio and television shows to the time of his death. And then there's been nothing at all. And there were a lot of fans of Tony Hancock, that we're we're desperate to hear his work again, there was nothing coming out from the BBC. And the decision was made in 1976, to form a society. And the aim of the society was to try and get more of Tony's work back on the radio and back on the television. But just as importantly, to try and collect the recorded works of Tony Hancock to form an archive that would be available for posterity. If you look back at the records for the BBC, from the mid 1970s, there were very few of the radio half hour was actually in their archive. And with that in mind, the society set about trying to pull together, these recordings from collectors all around the world, and the archive started to grow. So to this point in time now in 2022, we have over 1000 items in the in the audio, library, and several 100 in the video library, many of which weren't available for people to watch or see until the society put them in the archive, say the BBC had managed to either white or in fact hadn't recorded shows in the first place. Certainly the early television shows hadn't been recorded. And then as the society grew in numbers, and grew in stature, the society started to work with the BBC to try to get more shows on onto the radio and television. I was personally introduced to Tony Hancock through a repeat of about six of the radio half hours, my father said, we must come and have a listen to these. And I was immediately hooked, I could really see that there was something completely different in Tony's humour to everything else really, that I had seen before. And then as time went on, the BBC started to release complete shows on first of all, LP and then on cassettes. And then into the early 1980s, some of the television show started coming out on a video on both VHS and Betamax. And the society was starting to build this library that it would then lend to members to have a listen to. And I remember getting my big list of all these recordings that society had got and asking for cassettes three at a time, and then I recorded them at home onto a onto another cassette, so that I would have them to listen to. They were the early successes, if you like this collection of of half hours that the BBC hadn't got, or perhaps the BBC had only got an edit of. And by that I mean, the BBC used to have a broadcast episode, they would then edit it for use by an overseas radio station. It was typically put on a an LP record by BBC transcription services. And for a loss of the episodes that did survive even in the BBC archive, it was only a reduced edited version that existed. And then over the years, we've been able to find from collectors, people who had recorded from the Live episode when first broadcast and have built a much more significant archive of the complete original original episodes. So they were the early years our membership grew significantly. We publish a quarterly magazine called The the missing page when we started it was called railway cuttings. But we merged with an alternative society called the Tony Hancock society in the late 1990s. And the magazine was then called the missing page. And that's produced I say, every quarter for members, it's a full colour magazine and it's available to members for you know are very modest subscription of 16 pounds a year. In more recent years, there have been a lot of successes with the society working with BBC in particular around releases on CD and download. So, having gone from the mid 70s, when virtually there was nothing available to the public to buy, every single surviving episode now of Hancock's half hour on TV and radio is available to purchase on CD or download. And the society worked with the renowned audio restorer Ted Kendall and BBC audio Penguin Random House in the late 20, bout 2016 2017 to release what was called Hancock's half hour collectibles. It was a 20 CD release, which contained a number of these unedited and coxhealth hours, along with some really rare early material. programmes like calling all forces and star bill, a Royal Variety Performance. And then in addition to that, there were documentaries and interviews with Tony. And then in the last few months, we've been delighted to work with the television restoration company, kaleidoscope in the release of Tony's 1956 series, the Tony Hancock show for a TV and his 1963 series just called Hancock on DVD. And both of those are now available to purchase. So a lot of Tony's work. In fact, most of Tony's work that is of significance and importance in his history, is now available. The society though is more than just those releases. The society is reaching out to new people who have probably not heard of him before through a very successful podcast called very nearly an armful. available on Apple and Spotify podcasts. We've just reached the 30,000 Download point, just this week, and a new series planned for later in 2022. And it's four of us from the society. And we select an episode or a theme and talk through that episode. And that theme, as a a lot of downloads 30,000 to date. And then we have regular annual, say annual events, we have an annual dinner, we often go to Tony's old local called the Red Barn in Lingfield for society evenings, where we will have guests along the most recent guests. fairly recent guests have been Kevin McNally, Neil Pearson. And we're hoping again for Kevin McNally to join us this year for our event in Birmingham in September. So a lot of members are about 600 paying members about three to 4000 on Facebook, and over 10,000 on Twitter. So you know a big, big following for the society in the social media world.

Derek Threadgall  8:02  
So if someone wanted to join the society, how would they go about it, that we

Speaker 2  8:10  
have a website, www dot Tony hancock.org.uk. There's lots of information on there about Tony and his works. And there is a space where you can join, they'll say 16 pounds, you can pay that will get you a printed copy of the magazine every quarter. Or for 13 pounds, you can have a digital copy of the magazine sent to you by email. And in addition, every quarter there is something called the bonus pages, which is an archive centric magazine that's just available digitally. And that goes out to all members as well, every quarter.

Derek Threadgall  8:46  
Could I ask you then what are you done? Regarding Tony, is obviously incredible, and well worthwhile? Where do you see it going from here?

Speaker 2  9:03  
I think the most important thing for us going forward is to really try to get Tony's name known about by the younger generation. And I think our outreach with the podcast is the most important part of that. It's something that is appealing to the younger listener because it is on a platform that is more younger, younger person centric. But if I look at our membership for the society, it is a real mixture of ages and I think that's really important that we are that we have young younger members. Our youngest youngest member is you know, a young teenager but we have a wide range of members from all ages, from all backgrounds and and men and women. So it is you know, an open society and available to everyone. And I think trying to get home is work no About more broadly as our is our main aim looking forwards. Because the material that we've been working so hard to collect over the years, as I say everything of significance is now just about publicly available.

Derek Threadgall  10:14  
Would it be fair to say that with the membership of the society, we are talking about the kind of comedy that was very popular in Tony's day? London, the writers pee had? Would it be fair to say that by joining the society, people, especially, as you say, younger members, would experience or could experience the type of comedy that Tony had, and indeed other comedians had at the time? Yeah,

Speaker 2  11:03  
I would agree with that, I think it is, it is, it is about an experience, you'll be able to experience the comedy. Although I would say that the comedy, which is a comedy about a little man who's a bit pompous about things, always trying to get on in the world and make a difference. And always managing to fail at the last minute, is a comedy that is just as appealing now. So although it is set in the 50s, and you get the old topical reference, outside of that the comedy is as funny and as appealing as it was then. So yes, as a member of the society, you would be able to, to join us to experience what we have in our audio libraries. What I think is very important, though, is that we also help to stress the legacy that is Tony Hancock. So outside of all the commercial releases, the society worked back in the 90s, with a society called Turning Point, which was a society about supporting people with addictions. And there's a statue in Birmingham as a lasting memory to Tony in the city of his birth. And I think all of that type of activity outside of the actual works of Tony is a very important in helping keep his legacy alive. There are regular touring shows as a wonderful actor called James Hearn, who does a one man Hancock show he does he's an impersonator, and does all of the voices his tour want? The one man many voices to has been incredibly successful? And there have been many, many documentaries on television as well. Most recent one being Sky Arts, the undiscovered Tony Hancock, which again, had lots and lots of rare footage in it, some of which is now commercially available wasn't at the time. So I do think that there is a real legacy out there that the society and members who joined can tap into

Derek Threadgall  13:10  
I'd agree with that. How much emphasis with the society are you putting on the other characters that were always with Tony and those shows? We're talking about Hattie Jake Spilker said James. They played I believe they played a tremendous part. And being his foil,

Speaker 2  13:38  
they absolutely did. And as you go through the radio series, Hancock's foil changed and Bill Curtis said James and of course it was said James as the main foil on the television. Yeah, I mean, the society celebrates all of the all of the cast of Hancock's half hour and indeed the other shows that Hancock has been in. And in fact, in our most recent magazine, there's a piece on on Bill Kerr. And there have been pieces on Tony's writers pieces on one of his early writers, Larry Stevens, the it's the it covers the whole piece of Tony's Korean. So it isn't just focused on Tony the comic, it's about his legacy of works, and all of those who are in it.

Derek Threadgall  14:23  
You have mentioned the last episodes.

Speaker 2  14:30  
Yes, so we mentioned earlier about the archive of the BBC back in that in the mid 1970s did not have very many episodes. And then the society from collectors managed to build an archive and in fact returned many of the shows to the BBC that had been recovered. But in more recent years, the society has been more active in trying to find lost episodes. And typically these are going to be on reel to reel tape. So we'll continue The story of for society has found four episodes that have worked completely lost since the early 2000s. The first two were the Blackboard Jungle and the new secretary, both radio episodes, they've been recorded by a guy who was recording them for a friend who was on a shift that was always working when the original episode was on, and he'd record them for his friend to listen to. And usually he recorded over them, but these two particular episodes were favourites of his, and he sadly passed away, and the reel to reel tapes were donated to the society. And we were amazed to discover two last radio episodes, the Blackboard Jungle and the new secretary. They were provided back to the BBC and have had a CD release. what's incredible about them is the quality of the recording of these two episodes, because these were early episodes of Hancock's half hour, and the recording quality was was fantastic. We think that the actual reel to reel tape recorder had been hardwired into a radio. Fast forward then to about 2018. And sitting there on eBay is an advert for some reel to reel tapes of Tony Hancock along with the reel to reel tape recorder that they have been recorded on. We contacted the lady, her father had sadly passed away some 1718 years earlier, and he had finally got round to the thought of actually selling the tapes and the machine. And we looked at it and discovered on this pile of of reel to reels to last soundtracks of television episodes. And we purchased the tapes and the episodes were the horror cereal. Now the horror cereal was an incredible episode because it was a pastiche of the quatre mass and the Pitt television series, which was being broadcast live by the BBC. earlier that week, the final episode had been broadcast live, Ray and Alan incredible writers that they were picked up on how important the show was, and made this comedy half hour where Hancock discovers what he thinks he's a Martian spacecraft in his garden, absolutely fantastic episode. And what an incredible as a pastiche of the quaintness and one of the very first times that a television show had copied if you like something that was more serious and turned it into a comedy. And also what was very unusual was that the opening sequence of the episode had an ethereal sound to it. So they even changed the opening signature of the episode to match the theme again a very early example of that. The other one that was discovered was the Italian made, the Italian made was a another unusual episode in that it featured a guest star called Marlo Landy who was an Italian actress, and she was the Italian made that had come over, and a little bit of a fast ensued where both said and Tony decided that she could do no work whatsoever for them. And both of them were vying for her attentions. Again, a completely lost episode and wonderful to find. And both of those episodes were enhanced by Ted Kendall and were then released by BBC audio in these Hancock's off our collectibles. So the society has worked really hard in trying to find lost episodes, and then to get them to a wider audience through a commercial release. It's also worth mentioning that we've been working with Kaleidoscope and the calling all forces programmes that have been included in the Hancock's half hour collectibles and have now had a standalone download release from from the BBC. These are all recorded by the late great Bob Monkhouse. Bob wrote, calling all forces and the calling of forces and the incredible find of a complete star bill all came through the roof from Kaleidoscope and all again have been included in the collectibles. So some some real good treasure hunting going on in the last 10 years by the society and anyone watching this interview, do go and search your loft or your attic or some spare cupboard because we would love to hear from you with any reel to reel tapes you have with Tony Hancock on because it might be a lost episode. Or it might be one of these episodes that only surviving short and edit is available. And we'd love to hear the complete episode. Even if it's only 30 seconds longer. It will be great to find.

Derek Threadgall  19:51  
It is amazing. When last episodes of shows turn up in the most obscure place uses the more common why's that was one of theirs. The

Speaker 2  20:04  
more common wise ones that were discovered, I think the most recent one was or that they have done. A restoration was this film reel discovered, I believe in in Africa. It was and it was in such a poor state. But I've managed to use some amazing technology to get images from it to marry up with the surviving audio soundtrack. There's the work that can be done in restoring these shows is with modern technologies is quite incredible. Yeah, we, we've got hopes out there that more will be found.

Derek Threadgall  20:36  
Well, hopefully, there are more to be found. Because the more we have, the more people are going to appreciate it.

Speaker 2  20:45  
That's right. And I didn't mention earlier that the BBC have really really valued their legacy and in the last 10 years have recreated all of the missing radio Hancock's off hours in a series called The Missing Hancock's starring Kevin McNally as as Hancock himself. And, of course, we would love to hear the originals. But in the absence of those originals, these recreations are the best that we can have. And it's a great recreation and an ability to be able to really enjoy these wonderful scripts from from Ray and Alan for a new audience. And it's 10 Testament I think to the appeal of Hancock's half hour because as far as I'm aware, it's the only show that has had all of its last radio episodes restored. Okay remade and restored back on into the into the archives. Of course, we'd love to find the original but in the meantime, we can still enjoy these wonderful scripts word

Derek Threadgall  21:48  
whether any stage shows about Hancock. So

Speaker 2  21:57  
stage shows that about Hancock or stage shows that he has been in what both really so. Yeah, so the stage shows. There have been a lot of stage shows. I think I mentioned earlier the one man Hancock Show with James Hearn. There's been a recent stage show put on in Highbury by Mike Mark Brailsford called the lad himself. Now, the lad himself is set immediately after Hancock sad parsing, and it is about his transition from living into either heaven or hell. And he's accompanied in this wonderful play by the characters from the Hancock's half hour scenes in various in various guises and in various settings. I won't spoil the out the end as to whether he ends up with the white light for heaven or the red light for hell at the end. But Mark Brailsford is an amazing Hancock. And that show has been I think, originally on at the Edinburgh Fringe, but most recently in Highgate, and there have been plays over the over the years that are looking at Hancock, the character and and really looking at the Hancock story. So those those those shows, and those plays continue to, to continue to be performed.

Derek Threadgall  23:19  
Well, talking about the BBC. Hancock had some very, very good producers on the shows. Got down here, Dennis main Wilson, Tom Randall, and Duncan wood. And he was so fortunate to have those producers. Dennis

Speaker 2  23:47  
main Wilson and Tom Ronald were both fantastic producers for the radio show. And in fact, it was Dennis main Wilson that had been working with Ray and Alan in Star bill. And in previous radio series that Hancock had been involved in, but helped build that the Hancock character that then Dennis was able to take to the BBC to say, look, I've got this great idea. But what was really important about the great idea was how different it was. And I think if we think today about situation comedy, it's what we'd expect to see on the television and on the radio. But back then, comedy was variety led, so most of the shows, were a little sketch a little musical interlude, another little sketch, or it might be a comedian doing a little bit of a stand up routine. The first idea for the situation comedy was by a writer called Larry Stevens, who was Hancock's really good friend and early writer, and he came up with the idea of a sitcom of Tony Hancock as an estate agent. And it was called vacant Not and it nearly got to production. But there was a decision to make about whether or not to have an audience or not. And that decision just became very protracted. And the idea got dropped. But that was the very first thought about Hancock doing a situation comedy. Then it's Ben Wilson took that idea on then. And the idea of a comedy based entirely on situation, no funny voices, got the green light, and Hancock's half owl was born. So Dennis main Wilson was the key producer in the those early in those early years. Tom Ronald took over later on in the series, and continued in the same vein. Duncan Wood was the television producer that got Hancock's half hour transferred, effectively from radio to television, and hugely influential. He was also a producer that would listen to the RT. So I know that Tony had very little experience in film said James had lots and Duncan will work would work with Sid and Tony to make the most of his facial expressions, because a lot of his comedy came from his reaction to things and how we used his very mobile face and said helped Duncan and Tony get the most from those. So both on the radio and on the television, Tony was very fortunate to have some some really influential producers.

Derek Threadgall  26:30  
Well, they do get involved with educating Archie because they had individual comedians didn't like to educate Archie. And Tony was one of them. I just wondered how he got into that.

Speaker 2  26:48  
So he got into educating Archie really through the agency that he was in. So Tony was he'd done. He'd done some very early stage performances. After the war, so I'm talking about after the war, he was first of all in wings with Ralph reader, which which did a nice tour of the country. He did a couple of a couple of pantomimes. But the most important thing that he did, was he partnered partnered up with Derrick Scott, and in 1948 was at the windmill, the windmill theatre was a theatre where comedians went to die gracefully, because the punters went to see the new Tableau. So the chief Chamberlain's office wouldn't allow the nudes to move. So they came on as a tableau. And in between, there were all these comedians. And Tony would typically have said, you know, you'd go on to all these people in all these men in in suits or Macs or whatever in the front row, and then the nudes would come on, and you'd come back out again, and they will be the same people sitting there again, and he do is activate. Anyway, most importantly, he met he met up with his agent to be Phyllis routes. And it was Phyllis rounds that got him his first BBC appearance, which actually was on television in 1948, where he did and a little performance with Derek Scott. But the first real radio performance was with variety band box in 1949. So from 1949 through to 1951. Tony was appearing doing what we were called singles, so little short, common comedy pieces, six, seven minutes. And we mentioned earlier, Larry Stevens, Larry Stevens was typically writing those for him. In the calling or forces we mentioned with Bob Monkhouse, he would do a single and he would then be involved in a little sketch at the end. So that's a long answer to get towards educating Archie. But having done all of these little short segments on variety bandbox workers play time, he got to a point where he was then invited to join two radio shows at the same time, both produced by a gentleman called Derrick spear no he wasn't he was produced by Roy spear it was Derek Roy that was the comedian in happy go lucky. But Roy sphere was the was the producer of that and educating Archie let's talk about happy go lucky first if we can because happy go lucky is really important. happy go lucky, wasn't happy or lucky. It was a terrible show with really, really poor reviews. And Derek Roy, who was the comedian on the show, decided that he ought to try and improve it and he brought in two brand new writers who were fresh out of fresh air to a sanatorium decided that they could start to write and he would pay them five shillings a gag, Gordon and Simpson. And there they were writing these old gags for Derek Roy for happy go lucky. It still doesn't improve. And they bring in the new producer to replace Roy Speer, who unfortunately has collapsed through to nervous exhaustion and recognising two very tall men at the back of the room, Ray Gordon and Alan Simpson, the new producer says to them, Do you right? Yes, we do. They say, okay, you can write the last six shows of the theories. And that is how Tony Hancock met Gordon and Simpson. He's sitting in the stalls one day watching one of the rehearsals that is that is happening. Ray And Alan walked past and he says, Did you write that? And they say yes. And he says very funny. Shortly after that, a few months after that, Tony Hancock asked them to write a single for him. For one of the I think it was workers playtime and comedy partnership was born. So Tony Hancock was in this show, he's in an eager beaver sketchy place. A Scoutmaster called Ponsonby. And sorry, I didn't say the new producer. This is Dennis main Wilson. And he manages the eager beaver sketches. The most hated part of the show persuades Dennis main Wilson to overrun the show so that his sketch gets cut. And the show finishes just before Christmas. At the same time, he's got this opportunity to be in educating Archie Eric Sykes is the writer of the of the scope of the series. And Tony comes along as the tutor for the ventriloquist dummy Archie Andrews seems amazing today to have ventriloquist dummy on on radio, but it was incredibly successful, spoiled records, it spawned all sorts of memorabilia. And Tony Hancock came along replace Robert Morton as the as the as the tutor. And what he did was he this was still a variety format. So we did a little sketch at the beginning, which was typically it might be him as a Cinemark. proprietor, or as a dentist or something like that. And Archie, he's, he's, he's the foil for Tony Hancock then does a musical interlude. Then there's a sketch involving Tony Hancock as Archie's tutor, which interestingly has the love interest of it jokes. And then there's another sketch or sorry, another musical interlude and then a final sketch, which is some spoof on historical or period or some piece of literature. Now, only one of these shows survives, which is such a shame, but Tony has got a very different voice in this show. Compared to what you would hear in the later Hancock's half hours. It's, it's a very slightly more pretentious put on voice. But if you listened to the early Hancock's half hours, it was very similar voice. So we got into the show, it was hugely successful. It went on to have a stage show. He did some Christmas shows, and he got him his West End debut in the educating Archie show, so it got his name really known around the business. At the same time, or art, just as educating Archie is coming to a close. Tony is then invited to start to co host calling all forces calling on forces. As I said, I've been this forces show written by Bob Monkhouse and Dennis Goodwin. And Tony had just gone on as a guest, Ted Ray was the host. But we get to a point where the Ted's stepping down as host. And so Charlie Chester and Tony Hancock are asked to become the CO hosts this we're now talking 1951 After educating Archie. And it's really interesting because Tony plays the part where he's almost like the SID James character to Charlie Chester's character who falls for all of Tony's tricks. So a complete opposite of what you'd expect to hear in Hancock's half hour. So calling on forces comes along. He does about 10 with Charlie Chester's co host and a number of those are surviving or extracts of them are surviving, which is great to hear him in this very different role. About six weeks before it finishes, Dennis Goodwin and Bob Monkhouse who have written for the last 80 Odd weeks so a really gruelling period for them. They go off on holiday, and who is the go to writers like Scotland Simpson And so here we go. Gordon Simpson, our writing for Tony Hancock for the last six shows of calling all forces. And that sets them up then for what is really quite a complicated period in Tony's broadcast career. Because there are then a number of series called Star bill, all star bill and falses All Star bill. And over that period. Tony is working with Ryan Allen. There are some other writers as well, including Eric Sykes and Spike Milligan. But over that period, they are building the character of Tony Hancock, that becomes the Tony Hancock in Hancock's half hour. They start off working with Graham Stark and Joan he'll. Joan Hill didn't last for very long, although Joan Hill would later go on to work for Tony Hancock, in some work with Tony Hancock in a couple of television episodes. Sit in love is one of the typical ones. But so Joan Hill is then replaced by Geraldine McEwan. And they're starting these sketch formats with Tony and Graham Stark Geraldine and building this Hancock character that I say we later come to see and Hancock's our fell. The contract for Hancock's half hour is ultimately signed. And there's one more series to go off star bill before Hancock's half hour becomes live. And Geraldine McEwan is replaced by more realista who's South African actress of some incredible standing and she becomes Hancock's girlfriend in Star bill.

Speaker 2  36:39  
And these are all sketches with a little bit of musical interlude. So a typical variety show, but the sketches themselves are what you would probably call characterizations and character driven. So as I say, really looking at the Hancock's half hour to come.

Derek Threadgall  36:56  
Okay, now we are moving on. like no one's business. We're gonna head in here for the ATV is

Speaker 2  37:07  
yes. So we've obviously looked at Hancock's half hour, we'll come back and talk a little more about the Hancock's half hour in a little bit. But it's really interesting because ATV is people think of after he left the BBC. But in actual fact, Tony Hancock started working on television. His first full series was for associated Rediffusion television in a programme called the Tony Hancock show. So there's a little bit of a story as to how that happened. So we talked a little bit about Tony's stage career. He was very, very busy in those early 50s. And in the early years of Hancock's half hour, appearing in London laughs and followed by talk of the town. They were both Jack Hilton produce shows and he had a contract with Jack Hilton, which covered everything except for his sound radio. Well, that was certainly the view from Jack. So we get the start of ITV in 1955 and the BBC I've got competition. So the one thing that they really want to do is to start to meet the new ITV the fledging ITV network on their own ground. And they think okay, well what would be good Hancock's half hour on the television. Fantastic. Then remember, of course, that radio and television at the BBC were like separate companies they had to fight to be able to keep the name and and the same theme tune, but they were successful with that. But there was a problem. And the problem was that Jack Hilton believe that his contract for the stage shows also covered Hancock on television. There was a fairly lengthy debate, and the outcome of that was at the BBC allowed Jack Hilton to have a television series ahead of the first series of Hancock's half hour on BBC television, and then a second series that followed it. So Tony's first series was a say a Tony Hancock show in 1956. It was written by Eric Sykes exotics, in fact, appears in one of the episodes and the first couple of episodes were also co written by Larry Stevens. So people can see the entire first series it all survives. It's all out on DVD. And it's a very different show to Hancock's half hour. It's a sketch show. It's very physical in comedy. I mean, the opening episode opening scene of the second episode is Hancock having a massage by decay Murray and June Whitfield takes over and then goes into a singing routine. Jun did a singing vocal number in five of the six episodes. And I say it's very physical. It's um are very much more akin to Tony's stage work. And then the final episode is a single storyline. Jun Whitfield isn't in it because she went off on a belated honeymoon. And they brought in Hattie jokes to be the sketches called Death of a duchess. And they brought her in to be to be the the Duchess. CO stars John via and Clive done as well. It's a fantastic sketch to end the series. And we believe that Ray and Alan seeing Hattie Jake's and how well she worked with Tony and the chemistry between them in that episode that prompted them to invite her to join the Hancock's half hour series. Anyway, so we've got the first ATV series six episodes. BBC then do their Hancock's half hour, which we can talk about in a bit. There is then a second series which was supposed to be a single storyline. Some of it was written by Eric Sykes. Some of it was written by Ryan Allen, who they were under exclusive contract to the BBC. But they were asked to write the last couple of episodes of the series, because the quality of the scripts weren't great. And the BBC thought, well, if they're uncredited, were released them to do it, because that will make sure that Tony isn't seen as a bad light. So now we've got to fast forward a long way from then to the second a TV series which is 1963. So Tony has finished Hancock's half hour on the television in 1959. He's made his first feature film The rebel 1960 and decides that he wants to start to be of a more international appeal. He wants to ditch his Astrakhan Cola, he wants to ditch the stone me and the punch up the bracket. So his his last series for BBC is called last series of ABC is called Hancock. And people have often said well, he's never as good since he since said left, well, what's your favourite with a blood donor when he wasn't in that? So he he really showed that he could go and let go it alone. And he wanted to take that a stage further. He wanted to have more control over the programmes. He wanted to have more control over what happened to them and for them to be sold on an international market. That was much more difficult if he was with the BBC. And it was that that really tempted him to move to a TV. So he's finished his 1961 series for the BBC. He then goes off and films The Punch and Judy man. And when he's back from the Punch and Judy man, he then makes this series Free TV called Hancock, same name as the last BBC series. But Ray and Alan have now gone and we can talk about how they left a little later. And he brings in Godfrey Harrison to write some scripts. Now Godfrey was a good character to bring in. Because Godfrey had previously written a little sketch for Tony Hancock in 1950, on a programme called fools rush in which was Tony's first appearance on BBC television. But Godfrey came in unfortunately, Godfrey was quite well known for being quite late in delivering scripts, and for scripts being overlong. And there was a lot of editing required. And Tony had taken on the role of producer of the series. And so I think there were a lot of late nights involved in trying to get the scripts in split into place. So we brought along his good friend, Terry Nation to write some of the scripts. And also Richard Harrison Dennis Spooner. So this series was written by a number of different a number of different writers. It was originally intended to be six episodes, but was extended to 13. It was produced by Tony he had the rights to it under his own production company called McConkey production, which was named after the house where he lived, which I think itself was named after the previous owners of the house. And the series is completely survives, and is available for bid for people to purchase. It doesn't stand up as well as the golden and Simpson material. But I think we have to look at the Golden Simpson material and say, Well, that's an incredible, incredibly high bar to start with. If you look at the series, there are some very good episodes, the one that has always been the holy grail for Tony Hancock collectors, as one called the girl. It's a very good episode. It's a very funny episode. A girl breaks her show. She turns out to be a nurse, Tony fixes it for her, and amazingly falls in love. Don't see that In a box off, and then you get the sequence where he goes to the hospital to try and find her doesn't know her name just knows her description, and the sequences where he's trying to persuade the staff to let him see all the nurses that match her description. Do you want to see all of them in a line, Mr. Hancock type of dialogue. And then he impersonates a doctor to try and get in to try and get in to try and find the nurse is a very funny episode. There are very funny bits in most of the episodes. So I think it's for viewers for this, for this film is well worth your while having a look, there's certainly plenty to have a look at. I think it's worth then talking about what happened after the 1963 series. Because although it is better known today, Tony did suffer from poor mental health. And his poor mental health led to the alcoholism, alcoholism, and declines in his performance. And in fact, some of the decline in the performance in the Hancock 1963 series was was down to his is poor health. But he went on from the Hancock 63 series. He had a number of aborted film ideas. One was a film that was going to be about an absurdist film about where every member of the human race turns into a rhinoceros, which was actually going to be funded by his brother, Roger, but ultimately he decided not to do it. But a couple of things happened in the mid 1960s. That really worked in his favour. The first was that the BBC decided they were going to repeat a lot of the Hancock's off hours on television, and repeated all of the last two series of Hancock's half hour and the hanks series of Hancock

Speaker 2  46:55  
from 1961. All of those were repeated, and Hancock decided to do a series of commercials. Now he'd never done commercials before. In fact, he'd always said it demeans an artist and in fact, the very last radio Hancock's half hour is about somebody impersonating Hancock in a in a cornflake commercial, but he decided he would do a series of commercials for the egg Marketing Board. And that series of commercials. He said it was a good wholesome food. So he felt it was okay to do it. He was originally was going to do them solo and he was supposed to say the slogan happiness is egg shaped. But he didn't want to do that. So they had the Brainwave. Let's bring in Mrs. Corvette and from the Hancock's half hour and get Tony to react to Mrs. Gravette saying so that's Patricia Hayes. Patricia Hayes saying happiness is egg shape and then Hancock reacts to it. So those two things, Hancock's back on the television, he looks as good as he's always looked, because he's on the repeats on BBC is on these little short Ed commercials. So ITV offer him the Blackpool show. The Blackpool show is Tony as a compare of a of a comedy show, sorry, a compound of a variety show. And he is paired up with John Junkin, who's his foil to do the introduction to the various apps. And then he does a little stage performance as well. As part of the show. The pilot was absolutely fantastic. And everyone said he held the audience in the palm of his hand. Sorry, I should say it was recorded live in a theatre in Blackpool broadcast the same evening on ITV, so no time for edits. And then the series started and the shows were a success. He wasn't as good as he was on the pilot. But the shows were in the top 10 throughout. Sadly, there was a time when his wife at the time, had a suicide attempt. And he unfortunately continue to do the show started to rely more on what I would call the teleprompters already at boards, and the end of the series was less of a success for him. There is one show that survives. It's been broadcast by network DVD as part of their big night out as part of the story. Big night in as part of the COVID broadcasting that they were doing. And in fact, the little piece where he does a bit of a cold Shakespeare impression, which is his little stand up set piece actually works quite well. Finally, we move on to his last series for ITV in the UK, which was called Hancock's 1967 series. It's set in a nightclub and it's set that there is a little sketch a musical interlude and a sketch then the advert break out And Tony once again is working with Jun Whitfield as he did in his 1956 series, and he is also working opposite. A guy called Joe Ritchie, who had been part of his Royal Festival Hall performance from 1966 That was broadcast by the BBC. It wasn't a successful series. None of it survives on video. So we got no way of telling whether the reputation that it had is justified. But of course, his mental health and his alcoholism was really impacting his performance by this stage. So I think it's probably just as well that none of the actual footage survives the ATV years. And I suppose what we should do before we look back at the really good Hancock's off our material is to look at the Hancock's final programmes. So we finished his ITV career. So he finished his British television career by an interview on the AME. And Andrew shows after the Hancock 67. And then he did an interview for radio two with Derek Jacobs. And that was it. That was his last time on British television before he sadly passed away. But he went off to Australia. He did some live performances at den Dendi cinema and hotel called Hobart's. And he went well. And he signed a contract for a new Australian television series. Unbeknown I believe to his agent in the UK. He came back all this time, he's still doing UK stage performances. But his stage performances are the act that he's been doing for years and years, he doesn't really change that. And his act was one of doing impressions very badly. And, and he did these poor impressions. so brilliantly, he just brought the house down all the way through. Anyway, off he goes to Australia 1968. And, sadly, he makes just three episodes of this series, before he decides that he can't come back anymore. And he sadly committed suicide in 1968. But what's interesting about this final series is it is a very sad series to watch. It has been made available on DVD and it was broadcast in Australia. But he decided that actually, it was time to bring back the stuffed Eagle the Astra can collar the punch up the bracket the stone me what alive. And that's because the Australian production company, they've been showing Hancock's alpha. And what they wanted to do was to pick up where Hancock had finished with the BBC. And to continue with that in Australia. There's still the old wonderful glimmer of the Hancock of old. But part of that is because it helps you when you watch it you remember past glories rather than the brilliant so it was a obviously a sad into a brilliant career. But the BBC immediately after his sad passing, did another repeat run of Hancock's off on television and radio. And as we mentioned earlier, it was from that that the Hancock society was born, when

Derek Threadgall  53:15  
Hank cook made the films that he made the rebel, etc, etc, that that could be construed as a mistake.

Speaker 2  53:29  
No, I think I think the films weren't a mistake, I think, Tony, Tony's view was he wanted to be an international star. Like Chaplin. He wanted to have control over his material, because I think he could look at the BBC, all that all the work you've done for the BBC. And either it wasn't recorded in the first place, or the BBC had wiped lots of it, because that was the normal thing for them to do. That's no criticism of the BBC. It was what happened. And I think he wanted to have greater control over his material. So his films, funnily enough, his film started before Hancock's half hour so is his earliest film 1954 orders or orders co starred him alongside said James, although they had very little material working together. And I think, generally it wasn't regarded as a particularly good film. It certainly isn't regarded as a classic and he had a minor part as a as a bandleader. But the press at the time, called Tony out as one of the star performers, so you know, it got in some really good press. And then of course, that's 1954. He's then busy with Hancock's half hour. So his next move into films is 1960. Well, it's 1961 1960s making the film. It's called the rebel. So he's said to Ryan Allen, I want a film That is my sense of humour, my style, but he's International and appeal. So he's already thinking of getting rid of the Astrakhan code and the stone me what up? What alive? Because that's not international enough. So Ryan Allen write this brilliant film called The rebel. It is a look at or Mickey take if you like out of the arts world of the day. And in fact you can see echoes of that within the Hancock's half hours. It's very similar in things like the Poetry Society, for example, where you've got all these adverts avant garde poems being being created by this, this little, this little group of intellectuals. So it is a continuing theme. It starts off very British. It starts off in a London bedsit with Oh, Mrs. cravat, although this time not Patricia haze, but buffeted by are really handle, and then goes over to Paris to give it a more international appeal. And ultimately, he's making this statue of the millionaire s on a yacht. And it's not very good, because his art is, is of course, very poor. And he's mistaken for this brilliant artist who was he was flat sharing with. So I think it was a brilliant film. It had a lot of UK press. It was very, very successful in the UK. But what Tony wanted was international. So it is released in America. But when it's released in America, it has a name change. And the reason for the name change is another programme in America called the rebel. So for an unknown English comic, to go to the America with a new film, called Call me genius. It really, really got bad press reviews, they didn't understand that the comedy was in him being pompous, and not actually succeeding and failing his absolute comedy. So it was planned in the States. And he was very, very disappointed. So we move on to his next film. And he still got Ryan Allen. And they write with his some ideas from from Tony, they write to scripts, or to synopsis really, for a film, Tony says they're not international enough. And Ray and Alan say, we're gonna write a complete film script for you. So they write a film called the day off, which is about the experiences of a bus driver on his day off, and is Tony to a tee, the script survives. It's a brilliant script. And there's been a small reading of it at one at a BFI event a few years ago. It's a really, really good script. But Tony doesn't like it. He says, It's not international enough. Ray And Alan say, Look, we haven't worked for six months. We need to earn something. Tony says, off, you go off and do something else. I'll try and come up with some idea. And Ray and Alan are offered what is an absolutely incredible opportunity. By Duncan wood. He says, Well, write yourself a Comedy Series, six parts you can be in it. individual stories do what you like, have it's called comedy Playhouse. They write it. One of the episodes in that is called the offer, which of course, was Steptoe and Son. And then the rest is history for Ray and Alan. They are now busy with Steptoe and Son. Meanwhile, Tony works with a guy called Phillip hooks on a screenplay about a Punch and Judy man. It's a Punch and Judy man set in a seaside town of Piltdown sat in a rainy British winter or a rainy British summer possibly, but it's, you know, it's your typical typical British British summer and is quite a downbeat comedy. It's, it's a certainly a realism type comedy, almost a kitchen sink comedy. This time shot in black and white. Tony plays for the first time in a main film, a character that's not called Hancock he plays a character called Wally pinner. Sylvia sins is his wife, Delia. And it's a story about a broken marriage. And about the delusions of grandeur have his wife who is trying to get up, get up in social circles, and ultimately fails. shot in black and white. It is, I think, a really good film. It was panned at the time by the critics. But I think you have to watch it not with a Hancock's off our viewpoint, a bit like the Tony Hancock show from earlier, you have to watch it with a different thought process as to what sort of comedy you're going to see. And I think it will works quite well. But of course, punching god man, on a wet summer seaside town in England is not going to be international. So it really wasn't an international success. And for Tony, that was what he was after

Derek Threadgall  1:00:15  
I make an observation. Lodging. On the films, I saw, obviously, I've seen all the films he did. I think that a lot of people have been brought up with Tony, on radio, on television. When they went to see him in the cinema, I think just just purely an observation. Because I have seen the films in the cinema. You're looking at the screen, where your characters are twice or three times as big as on television. So we brought up with television, we used to television, we're used to seeing our heroes on television, and televisions, we're not big to television right now. And they were much smaller, much smaller. I mean, the first one I I saw was nine inches. And that was a boxing match in someone else's house.

Unknown Speaker  1:01:38  
It was very small with a magnifying glass.

Derek Threadgall  1:01:42  
So I think that for some people, and I must admit me as well. That going to the cinema, as we know is an experience. But everything on the screen is sort of five, six times as big. Then you watch yourself or what you could see a time on television. And when I was watching the rebel and the Punch and Judy man, I just felt something that wasn't quite right. That I felt that it was quite was blown up. And you're watching the character like Tony, in the rebel. He's there. And he's our man that we've been laughing at on television and radio, on a small screen,

Speaker 2  1:02:43  
sort of blow and suddenly you see him on this big screen. And I think you are right, because if you'd seen him on the television, you would have seen him on a small screen and the quality of television programmes with whatever it is 406 lines of data was was was quite poor. And suddenly you're seeing him on the big screen. You're seeing him and the rebel in particular, you are seeing him in absolutely glorious technicolour, there's the colours on the rebel in the the recently restored version that is available on Blu ray and DVD. The colours are really, really vibrant. And they really, really shine out. But I think the rebel certainly was an absolute box office smash in the UK. So I think people will have taken to the idea of Tony on the big screen. Okay. As I say it was it was very, very successful. And I think in the post war war world, the cinema was a big, big form of entertainment and particularly, particularly as you go through into the late 50s into the early 60s, many more of the films would have been in colour and they would have been so used to the vibrant colours of you know, your things like Oklahoma and high society and all of those types of films which were, well I'm sure they would have been in technicolour, so really, really vibrant colours. I mean, I think certainly the rebel was was a real box office success in the UK, the Punch and Judy man less so. And that's partly I think, because the British public were expecting to see Tony Hancock and what they saw was Wally pinner and that was a very, very different character. And they weren't expecting that. And then of course immediately after the Punch and Judy man has filmed he goes off and films his a TV series. Now that is Hancock. But again, a very different character from the one that they've been used to. And I think the dropping of the props certainly didn't help with either the Punch and Judy man or the Hancock series, the cat Some of the props that he used for his character, the same as Chaplin kept his crate up his cane if they'd kept some of the props like the the astrakhan coat and the and the little colloquialisms. I think it might have been more successful know that Tony, Tony did two ads whilst he was in Australia as well. He did one for Ilford film and I, I'm probably going to get this wrong. But it was for Caprese, fruit, nut chocolate. It was whatever the Australian called fruit and nut chocolate. And they were, you know, he did both of those. Both of those survive. Although I think the offered one with the ending is missing. But they both survive in our archive.

Derek Threadgall  1:05:39  
As I always remember when he was I wouldn't say all the way out. But he went through a phase that I saw on television. I think it was one of the roll film command performances. When he was he was on and I think he was partially drunk. When he came on the stage about you can't be partially drunk. Can you either drunk or not? It'd be one or the other one or the other. And I was watching watching that. And he was flailing. He was flailing, doing his impersonation. Robert, John saw but

Speaker 2  1:06:26  
that was just don't don't forget George Arliss. No, George did one for the teenagers here, George.

Derek Threadgall  1:06:33  
But it was I think it was a take on Long John Silver. I felt that was one of his favourites.

Speaker 2  1:06:42  
It was certainly one of the favourites. And I think if you watch some of the Hancock's off hours, you'll see that Ray and Alan managed to give him the opportunity to do his some is that Allah? Is that the impressions? His bad impressions, it within the shows as well. Yeah, I mean, I think if you look at or watch 1960s performances, then they aren't gonna compare as favourably as 1950s. But I think the most important thing for Tony is focus on the, you know, the legacy that he has left and the wonderful wonderful material through the Hancock's off our years. And indeed, the early material that was on the radio that does survive because all of it is is Tony it is it is absolute peak. But unfortunately, as we say that the sort of the the tailing is the mental health side took over.

Derek Threadgall  1:07:34  
I think that that's very sad because having been brought up, it's certainly in my teenage years. You just think of totally the work that he's done and the fun he gave.

Speaker 2  1:07:51  
Absolutely. And this is the important thing about the legacy because it was like, no other, no other performers at the accolade of having all of his missing material read remade by the BBC. If you go to BBC sounds you can listen to every single episode. Every single episode is available on CD along with more or less everything, it more or less everything in the sound archive is now commercially available through these Hancock's half hour collectibles. And I don't think there's anybody else that has had that accolade you get I know that they've remade a couple of the goon shows and they tried to remake some of the loss it comes till death us do part and a loss Steptoe in the loss. It comes a few years back also with Kevin McNally actually in as Hancock because they did one of those, but unfortunately no series came from that.

Derek Threadgall  1:08:50  
Maybe we should talk now about the Thank you. Hi. I'm

Unknown Speaker  1:08:56  
quite self out. Of course, of course.

Derek Threadgall  1:09:00  
Because there is important but it's all important, but especially it's

Speaker 2  1:09:05  
especially important because I think Hancock's half hour is is Tony's main legacy. Absolutely. So, we we talked earlier about Star bill and the fact that Hancock's in Star bill with Graham Stark and more realista. And before the final series of star bill, they've decided BBC have agreed they're going to do a situation comedy, no funny voices, no music other than incidental music. And they've got to come up with a cast. So Tony, already has a girlfriend called Moira Lester. She's a South African born actress, and they decided that she she's the ideal girlfriend for Tony, who else to bring in so they decide that rather than Graeme Stark, it's going to be Bilka now, we all always think of Bilka as an Australian But he was in fact born in South Africa. So there's the second South African connection for Hancock's alpha. And then they want so Bilko was brought in as the main foil for Tony Hancock. He's the fast talking sort of American style character. And then they need the slightly seedy criminal type character. And Ryan Allen know who they want. It's a guy who has been in the Lavender Hill Mob, but they can't remember his name. So no internet in those days off, they go to the local cinema. And see it said James. St. James, of course, is also South African born. So we've got a three hour South African born actors in Hancock's half hour. And then we need another voice. They need a voice for all the authority figures or the policeman or the judges or whatever. And Dennis main, Wilson said, Well, I've seen this young actor and he might be quite good. He does quite some quite good voices. So in comes Kenneth Williams. So here we have the basic cast of the very first series. Now they said no silly voices. Well, Ken's voices aren't silly, but they are very definitely characterizations. So Ken is very upper class in the first episode, he just plays a part called Lord Lord Bayswater. And interestingly, they also bring in another voice, Gerald, Gerald Campion, to play a character called coat sleeve, Charlie, who sniffs before every line. And that's the that's not effective. So he's only in that first episode, but Kenneth Williams is brought into play all these additional additional characters. So there we go, we've got the first series set up. It doesn't get particularly good ratings in the very first couple of shows, but it slowly builds. And by the end of the first series, it's it's doing well enough that the BBC say what, yeah, we're going to do a second series. Now we've got trouble. And the trouble is because Tony Hancock does not like doing long running stage rows at stage shows. We've already mentioned, he was doing London laughs and talk of the town, which were very long running stage shows for Jack Hilton. And he has break down and off he goes to Italy. And he's about to record the first episode of the second series. And the BBC decide that they are going to continue to record the show and broadcast it. We mentioned the Goon Show earlier, but also being produced by I believe being produced by Dennis main Wilson, that might be incorrect. I think it's then his main Wilson, he contacts Harry cecum, to say, what do you want to come in and fill in for Hancock? So the first three episodes of the second series do not feature Tony Hancock, they feature Harry cecum. And he does quite well. Also worth mentioned is that more realist moves off to do other things. So they bring in a new girlfriend for Tony Hancock, and the new girlfriend is Andre Melly. And the way they've written The storyline is they meet her in France. So she's French. So although she's a British actor, she comes in and has a French accent. So we have the first three episodes. And Harry cecum does quite well and the BBC are thinking, well, if Tony doesn't come back, we might have to call this see comes half hour. But Tony is back for episode four, and episode four. Has Harry see at the end? Hancock, Tony Hancock has to go and say thanks to Harry cecum. And if you listen to the remake, because none of these episodes survive, but they were all remade in the missing Hancock starring Harrison and DC come in, in the place of his father. But the script for the for the fourth show is lots of Ryan Allen having digs at Tony Hancock about where have you been and what have you been doing? Anyway, so he's back and the second series does really well. Third series, we've got Andre Melly, again, this time, she's lost her French accent. Clearly that wasn't working very well. But there's some quite some great episodes. Some of them are quite surreal, some real great flights of fancy. And during the second series, Ray and Alan come up for with this voice for Kenneth Williams. And they're just they just put a little note in the in the Scripture, so just use this sort of voice. And it's what becomes known as snide and the snide voice and I'm not going to even attempt to do an impersonation. is the good evening and stop messing about voice, which eventually became a voice that Ryan Allen had to write into the script for the audience's we're expecting him to appear at some point in the episode. So we've got episode series one, two and three. We've carry on with radio, we go back to the telly, but the the next series is after the Tony Hancock show has been on telly. And by I think it's episode four. We've got Hattie Jake's coming in. Now, Hattie Jakes is no longer Hancock's girlfriend. Ryan Allen always said they could never write particularly well for a girlfriend for Hancock. And Hancock used to say, Well, my character doesn't really fit having a girlfriend. So they brought in this character called Grizelda Pugh as Toni secretary who was really very, very fierce in the early episodes, and she gradually softened as time went on. But as those as the series went on to series four and series five, the series became more realistic. Tony's voice became softer, and most importantly, Bill became Bilko became more of a dimwit type character. And Tony Hancock's main foil started become said James said was still a little bit on the criminal side, but it was much less obvious. It was it was it was much more overt if you like. So we've got a series five and we get to the end of series five, and we've already mentioned about BBC transcription services liking to do editing the episodes down. But what they also did was sometimes an episode wasn't suitable for the overseas audience. So the next thing they did was to record rerecord four episodes from previous series. But they changed things so an episode that was called the 13th of the series. And because it was the 13th episode of that series, now becomes the 13th of the month so that it can be placed anywhere in a series. Tony hate the arrival of Hattie jokes instead of it being Oh, I'm gonna get a new secretary. The new secretary is placed in flashback. So the record these four episodes, one another one's Bolshoi Ballet, and the other ones the election candidate, and they change things to fit the overseas audience. But the snide character is now back because they were in the original scripts. And then we're on to the final series. Now the final series of on the radio was actually broadcast at the same time as the television series. So for this series, they had to record in advance otherwise it well, it would have been impossible to do. And Kenneth Williams is only in the first two or three episodes, they start to bring. Sorry, Hattie Jake's has gone. And they start to bring in other actors into the episode. And the the last radio series is probably the one that is the most realistic and true to life. And you've got people like Warren Mitchell, who of course later went on to do till death us do part. He's the famous guake away in the Poetry Society. And you've got these, these actors that give the show a lot more realism. And I suppose one thing that I should mention, also on the radio is in this year of 2022, with the Birmingham Commonwealth Games on Bob Monkhouse recorded a little 10 minute sketch, which featured Tony Hancock going to the Commonwealth Games of 1958. And that was recovered from Bob's archive and is now safely in the BBC archive, and again, has had a commercial release. And in fact, the BBC rebroadcast it at the start of the Birmingham Commonwealth Games earlier in 2022. So nice, a nice way to finish the radio review, I guess.

Speaker 2  1:19:06  
Television was a different kettle of fish, because you've got all these characters on the radio, but they couldn't be brought on to television. It was too many characters to bring in. So the decision from Ryan Allen was that they would bring in just said James as the main foil, and then they would have other parts played by what affectionately became known as the stream Repertory Company. And they would, there would be a regular group we've already mentioned John via who was in the Tony Hancock show was Clive down there was Dick Emery Merio for Britse. Genre, Missouri a was a fairly regular Johnny Vivian, there were lots and lots of characters who kept recurring. There wasn't any consistency between episodes and I think Ray and Alan once joked that sometimes there wasn't even consistency within an episode. It was but people didn't worry about that in those days. So the first series is live television, the same as the Tony Hancock show. But the Tony Hancock show was recorded on to film. The BBC show was broadcast live was never recorded. So unless you saw it in 1956, you've never going to see it again. Know, the chances of somebody recording a live television programme onto a reel to reel tape from 1956 is so incredibly remote. Then we move on to the second series. Now the second series is also broadcast live. Set James is busy on other theatrical work and is missing from the first two episodes. And the BBC decide for training purposes that they're going to do a tele recording. Tele recording is where they record the episode from a television screen. So the first episode of the second series called The Alpine holiday does survive. And it features Kenneth Williams playing the snide character, which is it's a wonderful survivor. Because it's the only footage of Kenneth Williams doing that character with Tony. Rest of the series is broadcast live, the ratings are beginning to get quite good. Now we're on series three. And series three has a bit of a watershed moment because it is broadcast live. And having broadcast it live all this way through. They've been lucky so far, because nothing's gone wrong. But it goes wrong in spectacular style. In series three, there's an episode called there's an airfield at the bottom of my garden. Now on this episode said James sells Tony Hancock house, which is at the end of a military runway. And every time the planes take off the house shakes. And Hancock is having this delightful musical evening. And suddenly the planes take off, and the house shakes, which is fine to start with. But the set starts to fall down at the wrong point in the shows. So the table collapses much way too early. And at one point, he's supposed to go and open the front door, and he asked to ad lib, I can't open it. I'm rooted to the spot. At another point. Dick Emery is supposed to come in and knock the mantelpiece off. But the mantelpiece has already gone and he looks at it and says Oh, no mantelpiece, we'll have to knock some money off for that. So it went spectacularly wrong. But you watch the episode, and you know it's going wrong. But you can still enjoy it and the comedy is great. But for the people, the stars of the show, and the director, it must have been a nightmare. So Tony finally persuades the BBC that they can that they should start to record is worth mentioning, of course, recording is only just becoming available. And videotape is only just about commercially viable for the BBC to use. And they can only record in 10 or 15 minute chunks they can't edit. So you've still got to get things right over a long period. But if there was a spectacular problem like in there's an airfield at the bottom of my garden, they could go back and reshoot. So the next series series four you get you start to see some of the episodes are recorded. Some of them are still live. But you now start see the real close ups on Hancock's face. And by the time you get to series four and five that were entirely recorded. This is where you start to see the real classic Hancock's half hours appearing. The two murders, the poison pen letters, the missing page, the reunion party, and the work that Duncan word and said James and Tony are putting into these close up shots is incredible. The shots of Tony and 12 Angry Men as he's listening to the various scenarios put to him by the jurors. And in his speech where he uses his famous line does Magna Carta mean nothing to you did she die in vain. But there's still the occasional fluff. And that's what I think helps to endear it as well because they didn't have the editing enough to just take out the occasional fluff. And of course then in the missing page, you've got the amazing sequence where he depicts the entire story of who done it in mind right from the the murder taking place to the judge, which is doing this and and the Hanged Man scene, absolutely brilliant in mind, and all done on close up. So the entire series five and six survive. And Hancock then decides it's time to move on. And we move into the 1961 series which is just called Hancock. And this has got arguably the most classic episode of all the blood donor. It's also got the the famous spoof of the archers, which he called the Bowman's and of course the very first Episode, Tony Hancock said, Well, I'm going to, I'm going to do this alone. So Ray and Alan clearly decided that he was going to do it alone. And the bed setter was entirely Hancock 25 minutes. The only other person appears is Michael Aspen in a news bulletin on the television. And it is an absolute brilliant one. But the blood donor is important because after recording, I believe it's after recording the Bowman's he's going home. Unfortunately, Sicily who was driving had a car accident, didn't have to wear a seatbelt. In those days, he goes through the windscreen, and he's got concussion can't learn his script. And in fact, he turns up, I believe, with two black eyes, which the makeup artists have to cover up. And for the first time, he uses teleprompters for his lines. And if you watch the performance, you and you know it's there, you can sort of see his eye lenses aren't in quite the right place. But it's still an absolutely brilliant series. And I think the lift is one of the first situation comedies where you've got an you know, an entrapped cast, trying to get out it's an absolute fantastic series. So brilliant was it that and in fact, so brilliant was the radio series that pi records went on to release what two LPS of the radio series in 19, I believe in 1961. To have to almost complete episodes in a series of selections and the beat and the pie went on to then rerecord both the radio ham and the blood donor in front of the studio audience for for an m&p release. So phenomenal success. And I think at the height of Hancock's alpha, our justice really sum up how important it was. You'd have publicans and you'd have fish and chip shop owners saying can we do something because the streets are empty? Because Friday night is Hancock night, everybody is at home watching Hancock? Because if you wanted to see it, you had to watch it when it was on

Derek Threadgall  1:27:10  
this one, I think unless you've got any other things that you want to say,

Speaker 2  1:27:22  
I think we covered I think we've covered most of it. I think it's worth is worthwhile just mentioning one other thing I think because I think Tony's early life was absolutely crucial to the comedy that he perfected. So Tony was born in 1924 to Jack and Lily Hancock and at the tender age of three was uprooted from his hometown of Birmingham all the way down to Bournemouth because his dad wasn't well and it was you need the sort of the sea air. And his parents had a number of different businesses including the laundrette. But ultimately they ran the railway hotel and later the Dalston court Hotel. Now Jack Hancock was in fact, I perform it himself. He was a comedian, and broadcast on very early BBC Radio In 1923. So his hotel, he invited all of these theatricals to the hotel, and Tony got to listen to the theatrical gossip. Here are all of these theatrical performance, putting on little X at the hotel, he would go down to Bournemouth pavilion, get a would go behind the scenes, so we could watch from the stage from the side of the stage. And that really gave him the buzz for the theatre. And then his mum was friends with a guy called George fairweather and he gave Hancock the chance to do a performance. Now Hancock who got a lot of his material from soldiers in that in the town, and his performance was quite blue. It was at the Avon labour club in Bournemouth. And the minutes I think of the performance is still there. I think that we're talking about a fumigate the stage afterwards and so on. And he then went on to do a similar act at a local church. And he said, after that I am never ever going to do blue material again. And I think that's really important because if you look across his entire career, all of his material was never ever blue. So that was his early stage. One work in Bournemouth he went on ultimately I mean he was called up in 1942 went to join answer failed twice. So it was in the RAF at some UK basis to the job really was to protect the bases from from aerial attack I believe. But he got invited then to join the gang show Ralph readers gang show and toured all over the world. war zones with rail free during the game show. And that was what really gave him his theatrical background and enabled him to practice doing all the things he was good at. And most importantly, all the things he wasn't so good at. And then after the war, as we mentioned rail free to thing gave him his first proper tour with with wings. So I think all of that gave him the real solid grounding of of the career that he would then follow.

Derek Threadgall  1:30:34  
That's that's very important because Ralph reader, of course, words, he helped so many young comedians to do just that.

Speaker 2  1:30:48  
He was very, very popular. Yes, he was. And I think there was a, there was a whole lot of postwar comedians, sorry, comedians in the post war period. And there were lots of opportunities. So Phyllis round spotted Hancock at the windmill that was the Nuffield centre where BBC producers would go to spot talent. And then we've got the trio that the four of them that made up the original goons that the graft and arms and the work that Jimmy Grafton did to to encourage these postwar comedians into, into whatever form of whatever media they wanted to go into.

Derek Threadgall  1:31:27  
Well, you will love the show Preservation Society. Did you go to any of the meetings of the grafting arms?

Speaker 2  1:31:37  
No, I never got to any of the meetings that the grafting arms I'm obviously a very active member of the Tony Hancock Appreciation Society. I'm definitely not an active member of the Goon Show and I do enjoy I do enjoy the the newsletters. But But again, you know, I just I enjoy I enjoy the posts for radio comedy and of television comedy. And the Goon Show Preservation Society is is another fantastic society keeping such a wonderful legacy alive you

Derek Threadgall  1:32:04  
if you work to the graft announced with Gibby Grafton once you got here, it's a spit and sawdust pub. Very big spit and sawdust. And what if you went into it? And you went to the bar, order a drink? If you're wearing a tie, the barman cut the tie off and stick it up behind the bar with the other 500 ties. Unbelievable. And Jimmy Grafton let Spike Milligan have a room up top. Yep. Where spike was doing the scripts. And every so often, because I was there with some of the other members. And every so often there'd be a phone call spike from up there. Since food up. And one of the producers of the Goon Show. Can't remember who it was, it was one of the big producers who did the Goon Show. We persuaded him to come along and meet the gap, meet the gang in Grafton arms. And he came. And we're all sitting in these in these seats in the bar. And of course, a number of the Goon Show members prided themselves on being able to mimic the sounds of the characters in the Goon Show. And they all started mimicking these characters is falling in the water, that sort of thing. Great catchphrases and the producer. He he just sat there and he said, God is that I never dreamed that I could be listening to this stuff. He's producing it. There was those sorts of things that used to go I

Speaker 2  1:34:17  
think, you know, with the Hancock society, you know, we all have our favourite lines and quotes and, and some of them get into everyday conversation. We've already mentioned the Magna Carta one and of course, the very nearly an armful is the the other the other one from the blood donor. So,

Derek Threadgall  1:34:33  
Addy, Jake's when I got those two, two, well, Bill girl I think it was about gravy. At least. My mother's grave used to move around a bit. Yes, daddy jokes are solid.

Speaker 2  1:34:50  
That's, that's that's all the goodness. That's all the goodness I've put in it says. Tony says that's the half a pound of flour you put in it. So yeah, that was the some fantastic lines that are awesome, fantastic. But But and in fact, because we mentioned earlier about the Hancock Appreciation Society podcast that's called very nearly an armful, which is on the apple and Spotify. And in fact, I think you just put it into any, any search engine and find it. And I think that's the important thing. It's, it's the sort of classic lines that that people will continue to remember. Because I think I think Ray and Alan spent at least 10 or 15 minutes working out, is it very nearly an oval? Is it almost an arm? Or is it an armful to get the right rhythm to the line to really get a laugh? And that's, that's a comedy, comedy craftsmen at their best? Well,

Derek Threadgall  1:35:41  
also, with comedy Crossman, you learned

Unknown Speaker  1:35:47  
the pauses? Absolutely.

Derek Threadgall  1:35:49  
The pauses between the lines that you're saying, or the joke that you're making. And often it was the pause. That got the laughs It was,

Speaker 2  1:36:01  
again, it was revolutionary in the day. So you've already mentioned the graving not moving about? Well, that's from the radio episode a Sunday afternoon at home. And that was revolutionary because it was an episode about a boring Sunday afternoon, in which nothing happened. Absolutely nothing happened. And you get pauses and size and stone me what alive and all of that sort of stuff. And nothing happens but the audience are laughing in the pauses. They are finding the yawns and the groans. And then you've got Kenneth Williams, who's by this time has stopped doing snide, but he comes in with this brilliant character called Clark at the end. Who tells Hancock Reed doesn't think he shows as funny as it used to be. It's just surreal humour, but it's absolutely brilliant.

Derek Threadgall  1:36:53  
also heard the deep intake of breath board. Yes,

Speaker 2  1:36:57  
absolutely. And what's interesting about that episode is how many complaints it got. Because it was a Sunday afternoon, and everyone was bored. And the complaints were were you're taking the mickey out of the Sabbath day. And the producer said very clearly, it's Sunday afternoon. It wasn't the morning. So Ancol could have gone to church in the morning. Although, of course, we know that he didn't because Hattie Jakes told me and he got up an hour ago. By the way, a lot of complaints at the time, but it is one of the most famous episodes and revolutionise the use of silence in radio comedy. I

Derek Threadgall  1:37:37  
have been waiting. I've been waiting so many years to try to discover something that happened in the Hancock radio series. Now, I know you're gonna tell me what it is no pressure here, then low pressure. This, this has stayed with me. 50 years, 60 years in when they were recording, the ankle shows, what was the theatre? They did the BBC theatre

Speaker 2  1:38:14  
while they were in various venues. So they did some at the Paris studios. I think this is when they were doing Periscope, but the lots of them. A lot of them were in the Camden theatre. What is now London, Coco, I

Derek Threadgall  1:38:26  
see a lot of them were there. Well, when they were recording for the for the for the show, and the audience. were laughing. Of course they should do. But there was one female voice, which stood out from the whole audience. When she laughed. It was piercing. And she was there. For I don't know how many shows they recorded, but you could cut the air with a knife he was and everyone else was laughing perfectly well. But then this voice would cut in and it was like a lone voice coming out of the very

Speaker 2  1:39:13  
it was very loud. Wasn't it very loud. I don't know whether there was a microphone much closer to her. If you'd like me to say the identity of this lady, I'm going to disappoint you. Because there's been lots of lots of speculation over the years.

Derek Threadgall  1:39:28  
But But what she planted there,

Speaker 2  1:39:31  
we don't believe so. No, I think it was a it was a regular audience. Audience member who presumably got some see lots of the shows. I mean, there's been talk about whether it was Kenneth Williams mum could have been Yeah, or whether it was Beryl virtue or someone like that, you know, but nobody knows the answer to that. And in actual fact, if you watch an I believe it's the train journey. You've got a gentleman with a very, very distinctive laugh in that But I just think it just happened to be that there was this, this person with this particularly well, I've

Derek Threadgall  1:40:07  
got my answer. Yes, I've got my answer, not the right one, but I've got the answer. Is there anything else that? No,

Speaker 2  1:40:16  
I don't think so I think if we're sort of finishing off the interview is just worth me just finishing off by saying, you know, my my view is that Hancock's half hour and Tony's comedy is, is timeless. It's it's as funny today as it has ever been. And I would really encourage listeners to this film, too, if you haven't experienced it, to go and enjoy it, you can find lots of it on BBC sounds, there's loads of commercially available on DVD and on CD. And of course, I'd would be very remiss in not suggesting you listen to the society's podcast. Or join us, as I say, www dot Tony hancock.org.uk. It is only 16 pounds a year, these magazines have got lots and lots of information. And we'd be like delighted to welcome you as member Well, what you've

Derek Threadgall  1:41:05  
done today, I also had a long short drawn one second of this. It's been, as far as I'm concerned, it's been a brilliant interview. And we've covered so much ground and opened up so many different avenues that I think I may be persuaded to join. Fantastic. So I know I think I've learned so much from this as being a Hancock fan, for God knows how many years but I've learned so much from this. And I think that our members and people who look listen to, or get into our website, etc, etc. I'm sure they're in for a huge surprise, because

Speaker 2  1:41:55  
well, I hope I hope they enjoy it. And as I say, do go out and find the commercial leases, there's lots of books out there as well. And if I can I do a plug. So, so just recently, I don't know when this will go live but about to be published in the next. By the end of August is a new book called Tony Hancock inside his life in words and pictures, is written by Tony's great niece, Lucy Hancock, along with Tony Hancock appreciation, society, archivist and membership Secretary Tim Adams and myself. And what is really important about that Tony's brother, Roger was the hair master and enormous archive of material that was painstakingly kept by the family. And Lucy has invited the society to work with her in picking out key parts of that archive and to put it into a book. So the book is is is Hancock story. The Tim and I, along with Lucy have written the story. But the real star of the book is the documentation and the photos, both from the society's archive and from the Hancock family archive. And that's published through Kaleidoscope which is www.tv brain.org.uk. And it should be available by the end of August. So well worth a look. If I say so myself. Well,

Derek Threadgall  1:43:23  
I'll do a deal with you. I published a book on my time in Shepperton Studios, and I'll do a deal. I'll give you a signed copy of my book. You give me a signed copy of your book.

Unknown Speaker  1:43:44  
Shall we consult something?

Derek Threadgall  1:43:47  
I was there for five years. But interesting what was going on? I'll get the book to you. Yeah, that'll be lovely.

Speaker 2  1:43:54  
Thank you, also to the society. Yep, that will be that'll be lovely. We can put that in our archives, the

Derek Threadgall  1:44:01  
archives, because it is interesting to know what was going on. In that we'd

Unknown Speaker  1:44:06  
be delighted to have that thinking no problem.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai