Jack Hildyard

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The copyright of this recording is vested in the ACTT History Project.

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Jack Hillier, lighting cameraman, interviewer, Alan Lawson, recorded on the seventh of january 1988

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side one i

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Goon, where and when were you born? Jack.

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I was born in Mort Lake, sorry,

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in 1908

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and what kind of schooling did

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you get?

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Quite an old I don't know what they were calling nowadays, state school. I suppose Council schools, weren't they? Yes, yes at first,

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then to a business college, Park College,

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mainly because my father always had the wish I got the city

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form either,

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but I didn't want that.

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I didn't fancy that at all.

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That was your specialized training? Was it the Clarks college,

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or was that schooling as well the Business College? Yeah, it was supposed to

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be,

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unless you're interested in

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nothing happens. What was your father doing then in the city? Well, my father was all his life. He was with Coleman's master,

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but he had a lot of friends in the city that before he was ready

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for what made you did? What made you decide to go into films. One day,

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a friend,

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I met

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a friend and

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a girl actually her uncle

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was the chief engineer at VIP studios in Elstree.

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He said, Why don't you come and join us in the film business?

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And quite honestly, I never even thought about it,

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because it was one of those vague things.

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I was interested, to a certain extent, in photography,

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purely in a box brownie

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area, nothing, nothing greater than that,

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and purely from amateur work. You know,

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when did, when was? When did you start then in the industry, 1932 I so I see you quite old, really. Well, I was,

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I was a clapper man. I think you are the clapper boy.

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Well, what did, what had you done in the meantime?

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Well, in the meantime, I was after.

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I left school

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again through my father, a friend of his, I joined an American Shirt Company in old bomb street,

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and I was there for some years,

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obtained

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the rate of salesman.

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It wasn't for me what I wanted taught.

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So in 1932 then you really started 1932 I started in the film industry. Can you remember? Can you remember much about that? I don't remember much about the film I started on. I can never remember the name of it.

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I know I was an assistant coming in on blossom time,

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which is one of the big productions they made there with Tauber, who was

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the cameraman.

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Cameraman was Claude free screen.

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He was, he was the cinematographer

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and the operator

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also got to know very well Ronald lean,

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who finally gave up the drug of him became a director and

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his crew, he.

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In

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fact, there's quite a little story attached to that,

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because, oh yes,

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the

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the uncle of the girl,

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introduced me to the chief of the camera department.

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He had a chat with one day. And

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he said, Well, come along, whatever it was on Monday or whatever, and we'll start through the camera department.

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So

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in due course, I went along.

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Met him, he said,

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terribly sorry. Things have gone a bit the wrong way.

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We haven't got any vacancy at all in the County Bar today.

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He said, I know you've come a long way from Richmond, and

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I don't want you to come here for nothing.

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He said, I

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can give you a

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I've got a suggestion, rather than

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empty handed, as it were,

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if you go and see

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the casting department, I think they might find

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yourself.

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I really didn't know what was going on now, so I went and saw the

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casting department. He didn't mean to confirm through to him

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and before very long, I was

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dressed in a black jacket and a rolled umbrella,

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and I was on some set

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walking around with a girl mile

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as an extra.

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So really, my first introduction to the industry was as

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an actor. That's what I was doing,

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that only for one day and the next day I started in the camera department.

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That was Bill Hackett, well, Bill Haggard. Hackett,

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Bill Haggard,

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what

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was your what were your parents reaction to you going into the film business?

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Well, my father was in two minds about it, because his wish had been,

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hadn't been fulfilled, of course, and he was, he was a real city man. In fact, they used to, when he got older, towards retirement,

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he actually used to go up to the city on Saturdays when the officer wasn't, that wasn't even open,

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just to be with his city friends, you know, and

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the environment of the city and everything.

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And he was with Coleman, I think, for about 50 years in the morning, till he was tired.

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But of course, eventually, when I

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started my

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film a cinematographer,

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and he saw my name up on the screen.

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The

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whole thing changed, and he

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talked about his boys up

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there. He album up there,

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and he was quite proud

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my mother. I don't think my mother really ever realized what was going on.

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In fact, they had both heard vaguely about the film, but this film business around Sharon,

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Charles Chaplin and

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all those sort of people.

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Can you remember how much you were getting when you started? Yes, 15

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streams a week. I remember

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that when I first started, it ended up

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about 35

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what was the working week like? Or the working day, really? In the working week, talk about the working day, I think, well, we

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used to start about 830 in the morning, and then it was open ended.

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There was no finishing time at all,

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and we in the camera department, and I say we know best of us were more or less equal. I.

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Brian Langley, Brian, namely, was one of the boys that was there when I was there. Yes, yes. I think Paul bees was too I think Paul was later, oh, he may have been a bit late. Here. We younger than I. Anyway,

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I know Brian was because I was once on a unit that Brian was the operator on. Where

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were you living at the time, Richmond.

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How did you get to and from? Well, it was a bit tricky. Actually. It was a train journey from Kew, yes, Kew station to Houston. Was it West Hampstead?

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Then you changed on to that,

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to

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Mill Hill? Yes, yes, the Boren wood

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but it was quite a he was tedious journey. And of course, if we

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there's one thing that used to happen there, for instance,

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all the

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cameras and

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all that sort of equipment. We had nothing like today's modern

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test facilities. For instance,

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the lenses had to be focused very often.

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To do that, a special man used to come down for

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Cook's lenses, I think he was

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and one of us would be assigned to stay with him for the evening,

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because we knew about where the cameras were kept.

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And on occasion like that,

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you

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had been working since 830 in the morning,

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and

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then the message came through from Bill hack, or whatever his name was,

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just say that he wanted you to stay With with this gentleman. By now he knew and you

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had to go to a department

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somewhere

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and work with him testing all the lenses

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well that used to go on sometimes about 1030 at night, if

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there was something tricky, you know,

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well, then they did provide transport at home, which was all right,

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together with two and six months of your supper,

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which we used to spend in the canteen. And

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but they were very funny days, actually.

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I remember

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I told them how old I got. I must have been

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somewhere between 20 and 30, I think,

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what mid? In the mid 20s, yes.

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And,

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of course, on some of the crews that I worked as

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a clapper man.

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I called you clapper man.

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You know, most of the crew junior to me,

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but they were all very quite nice, I mean,

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but I had to sort of knuckle down a little bit, you know,

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some upstart of a system to

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send me off for his tea or something. I never wanted a ticket about a fellow, he

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used to say, what were those long buns with white cream stuff on the top

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Swiss bundle?

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So I would go, then stand in a queue with all the electricians and take my chance

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to get this stuff. And then when I got back to me, he said, No, I didn't mean one of those around the current session.

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Well,

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I had to be careful.

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So, you know, I went along with it. Oh, and

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I'd always had a good sense of humor, so I saw the funny song of some of the instances. You

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know.

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There's also the job

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became a bit in the not with this clapper.

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And I said to Ronnie me one day that

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I was getting a slightly raw deal on being told how the camera worked. You see,

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because the assistant would

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the only chance I ever had, really it was when he was floating up for another role or something. If I went to try to look over his right shoulder, he'd move over to the right, and

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then he moved the left. I couldn't see down there.

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So Ronnie neem said, Well,

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he said, If you keep it very quiet. He said, best thing you really could do would be to

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get in a bit earlier,

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get the camera out, and I'll fix the roller film,

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that film that you can play around with and thread it and see how it works.

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Well, adios, in those days, the chiefs came in. Man had his own room department and

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called freeze green,

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which was a good start to have a man like that, because he was very good at his famous photographer.

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His father,

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William free screen was on

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a tiny as a cinematography. Yes,

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yes, yes. Strange time last year,

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I was in Brighton. We went down to Brighton for lunch.

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Do you know Yes, yes. You know those alleys? Yes, yes, antique stuff, yes, yes. Turn the corner and then underwater placket.

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William frees green lived here, and

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I just thought, I wonder how many people walked past that Noel William dream was,

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but he did live there.

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So,

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yes, Ryan Negro made this for me. Well, of course, it made getting up.

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Wasn't a train every 10 minutes.

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So it made getting up about an hour,

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starting out an hour earlier in order to catch a train to get there because of the connection.

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But I did that for about a month, and at the end of the month,

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I, you know, I knew how this camera worked, you see,

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and it

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was a bit of a secret between Ron and lean and I

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from the rest of his crew. What

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was the camera?

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He was an old Bell. Now,

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I really can't remember what they were on those cameras.

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With the high speed gate, it

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wouldn't mean the clapper gate, not in that too noisy.

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It

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was already claw movement.

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Oh, where you went, were the cameras in booths then, or were you out of booth?

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We weren't entirely out of booth. We used to go into a booth, if it was something like fact projection or something like that.

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I don't know why, but it would have been much easier not to cause

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the glimpse, about twice the size of that TV set, yes, yes,

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big square boxes with a wheel head, yes. Not that I ever got a chance to do that VIP too early night.

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But

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that assistant, and then one day that assistant was Dayton Hill,

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and he couldn't

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cope.

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Ronnie Dean said, Well, let Jack have a go.

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Jack had a Goon, and

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I trained the camera. And this lad never knew

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to this how I ever learned, but he still doesn't know.

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So I've kept that secret following so he started the business. I.

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Give us a rundown of your your your career, you know, the progress of, you know, from VIP.

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From VIP.

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I went to B and D, which was the next door, and

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we were in the middle of a film there,

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and I was staying the weekend with some friends in elfred bornwood.

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During the night, we have fire agents going to hang around all night,

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the next minute, the next morning, and the newspaper said elfred Studios raised the ground. So I

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thought, oh, that must be mine.

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Sure enough,

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it was

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so well it didn't make a good turn in a strange way, because

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the film that we were on was only about halfway through, and I wanted to complete it,

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and coward offered them facilities at isolate

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to finish the film. Yes, so we went as a unit. We moved down to isolate,

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and that didn't do me any harm, because I lived in Richland that wasn't too far away,

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and I met a whole new lot of people,

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including Bert easy,

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who was the Chief, chief of the camera department at art of Earth.

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And it was just before Denham was completed,

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and the whole shebang was going to move over to

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Denham studios,

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and I went as one of the camera department with them. What were you doing? Then in the camera department, focus. You won't focus.

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I moved up from the clever stage just before that fire.

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Well, the i

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i Remember

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no

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so I got to meet bird easy.

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We became great friends. And

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not only he and I, but the two wives got very friendly,

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which was really present.

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Well, then eventually we all moved over to Denham, which was now completed.

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The slight problem was the day before we were going to move

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the stage that we were had been allotted that caught fire.

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Nothing too serious.

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But from there on the court, I stayed at Denham and I

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I moved up in the normal way, you know, with the camera department at Dan,

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I became an operator.

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What was the first film you were for operator on? Do you remember?

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I wish I could remember, I know it

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was a Tom balls picture.

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Oh, it must be in B and d1, wouldn't it? Well, it wasn't a B

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and D, but, I mean, it was, I mean, he was working, he probably was, yes, yes, one of the old witch fans, I know he was in it. No, red fly, wasn't it? Oh, he wasn't. I there.

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It wouldn't be on this list. Unfortunately, this is a photographic list.

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I haven't got one of my operating days,

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however, anyway, yes and I went over there became a

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I became an operator,

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which I rather enjoyed, actually those days.

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And then I met up with Paul craska Yes

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hora,

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famously, moved that day when

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I became his operator.

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And the first big picture we did together was

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Henry, the fifth

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I was the operator. He is the at.

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The lighting camera, yeah, and I

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think I finished that for him.

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He went on to something else,

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and I took it over. Oh,

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that was your first kind of little entry. Well, that was, in a way before, although there

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was only about a month in between those two films, yes, end

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of the fifth and

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season Cleopatra. Yes, I think season Cleopatra was the next one after end of this. For me,

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but let's, let's get, let's get. Just go back a little way.

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Can you describe the technique of shooting when you first started?

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You know, and how it's changed?

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Well,

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it's changed a lot for me because the first camera I ever worked on when I became a cinematofa, where it was

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technical, three strip, three straight. Yeah, and

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of course, the amount of light required on the set was

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four times what we would use today. Yes, yes,

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for those technical people who might

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read this

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minimum amount of light you could use

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for Technicolor,

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for

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a daily shot, as opposed to a nice shot

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in the studio with 800 foot candles

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that actually is compared with

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possibly 200 foot candles today

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for color film.

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But it didn't present any particular problem, because we have the correct rigging for it like

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but what about, you know, before, before, the before color,

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the difference as the progress, if you like, in techniques, up to what was the first one? What wings on the morning was the first

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kind of up to that period?

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Well, it's black and white.

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What? And you know, what? About a lighting and things like that. Well, I always used to say that one was photographed in black and white and

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but lit in color. Yes, yes.

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Explain that, because some people wonder what your meaning do.

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It's all a question of

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separation, really, because

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if you're photographing a colored scene

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with color film, which is

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adaptable to color,

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various

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objects in that scene will stand out against the background because of their color,

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whereas in black and white, they're all the same shape, whether it's a

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wall behind or something or chair, as opposed to an actor in a suit,

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They're all

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black or white,

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and they could all blend as one, black and white, nothing, yes. So you have tonight

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accordingly

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to pick out

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each

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each object, whether it's a moving one or a static one.

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And like either the background or it itself in such a way that it will stand out now that

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I think that is more

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my version of photography than

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with color, because with color.

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At first, and especially with the early technique,

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you could put an overall light on the set,

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and it would look quite nice, but you couldn't do that with black and white. The result would be just a growing nothing.

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So that was a whole different technique we have to find out about. And

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when you first started, did you do much location work, or was it done in the studios? More much more studio

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very soon. Did we ever go

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night today, to

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a natural location, or to some state, the home

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they would be built

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as sex

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you might photograph in an exterior,

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but all the interior of the

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sets.

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But I mean exterior. Exteriors used to be done in the studios too.

Unknown Speaker  31:09  
They weren't too big. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  31:13  
did you? Did you go away often or not too often in those days? I did have

Unknown Speaker  31:21  
a couple of

Unknown Speaker  31:24  
distant ones. One was to

Unknown Speaker  31:28  
Freetown in West Africa,

Unknown Speaker  31:32  
and I went to Egypt. What films were theirs? I

Unknown Speaker  31:44  
very tax in the memory now,

Unknown Speaker  31:47  
were these when you were lighting?

Unknown Speaker  31:50  
No, when you were operating?

Unknown Speaker  31:54  
Wasn't Saunders river or anything like that? No, no.

Unknown Speaker  32:01  
Never mind, never mind.

Unknown Speaker  32:05  
So you had some overseas locations then, yes, they were quite fun because there were no airplanes.

Unknown Speaker  32:14  
So

Unknown Speaker  32:16  
that, right, it was a nice place.

Unknown Speaker  32:20  
Wasn't always

Unknown Speaker  32:21  
free town. I would call that another space

Unknown Speaker  32:29  
called the white man's grave,

Unknown Speaker  32:33  
and

Unknown Speaker  32:35  
we went with shit, because he was a liner,

Unknown Speaker  32:39  
where it took

Unknown Speaker  32:41  
least two weeks to get the free town from Liverpool,

Unknown Speaker  32:46  
and the same time back so four and the end of every film you wrote, you had two weeks Holiday, really, on a

Unknown Speaker  32:56  
sea which was marvelous.

Unknown Speaker  33:00  
And you

Unknown Speaker  33:07  
and we did the whole thing very well. I mean,

Unknown Speaker  33:16  
there's no question of going

Unknown Speaker  33:18  
low class or second class, singles. First Class always had to dress for dinner every night and

Unknown Speaker  33:27  
a white taxis area

Unknown Speaker  33:30  
when we got down into the warmer areas,

Unknown Speaker  33:35  
which is usual on

Unknown Speaker  33:38  
those sort of things.

Unknown Speaker  33:42  
Except first night out and

Unknown Speaker  33:45  
last night in.

Unknown Speaker  33:49  
Expected to dress for dinner, yes,

Unknown Speaker  33:53  
which was quite nice, you know, we leave the

Unknown Speaker  33:57  
summit to do and ready for you.

Unknown Speaker  34:07  
Now what, what kind of

Unknown Speaker  34:12  
influence did frame sizes have on your early life?

Unknown Speaker  34:18  
The frame size really came into it. When I was a cinematographer, it

Unknown Speaker  34:23  
doesn't really affect

Unknown Speaker  34:26  
anything else, except for an operator, because its composition is entirely different that you've got.

Unknown Speaker  34:34  
That's what I was getting at space to

Unknown Speaker  34:38  
take care of, very often not much going on in it.

Unknown Speaker  34:45  
As far as the

Unknown Speaker  34:47  
lighting was concerned, it really restricted us to

Unknown Speaker  34:52  
any lamps that we would normally use on the floor, because we use a lot of stand lamps

Unknown Speaker  34:59  
going to.

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
The width of

Unknown Speaker  35:01  
the

Unknown Speaker  35:05  
well, this is CinemaScope. Yes, yeah. Meant that

Unknown Speaker  35:13  
you couldn't get your laps sometimes where you really wanted them, so you had to compromise on that. But it all worked out.

Unknown Speaker  35:26  
Now,

Unknown Speaker  35:29  
there have been quite a lot of changes in film stock went from when you first started.

Unknown Speaker  35:36  
They probably didn't affect you very much to start with.

Unknown Speaker  35:41  
But as an operator, if you're using a look through,

Unknown Speaker  35:45  
they did. We did because of the amount of light that

Unknown Speaker  35:52  
the grade base had to be put on the set was very much lower than previously,

Unknown Speaker  35:59  
and it affected us, Noel as opera more on vacation,

Unknown Speaker  36:05  
because, on occasion,

Unknown Speaker  36:11  
many of the cameramen Those days

Unknown Speaker  36:17  
were all black and white yet.

Unknown Speaker  36:22  
And

Unknown Speaker  36:25  
they all struggling for the best result, obviously, and

Unknown Speaker  36:29  
that usually could be enhanced by the use of certain filters.

Unknown Speaker  36:37  
Well,

Unknown Speaker  36:38  
some of the cameras that I use

Unknown Speaker  36:42  
to look through the actual film, yes,

Unknown Speaker  36:47  
which meant looking through film, a shutter Going around it as well.

Unknown Speaker  36:53  
Yes, the three

Unknown Speaker  37:02  
in five fives and the five n5

Unknown Speaker  37:05  
was a worse one than that.

Unknown Speaker  37:08  
There was one darbolic one. I remember I used it myself when I became a cinematographer,

Unknown Speaker  37:16  
I always felt sorry for the operator.

Unknown Speaker  37:18  
72 Oh, yes. Really dark, yes.

Unknown Speaker  37:24  
In fact, many occasions, I spent most of the day

Unknown Speaker  37:28  
leaning against the back of the camera with my head under a black velvet so

Unknown Speaker  37:34  
when the moment came to look, you know, I could see something.

Unknown Speaker  37:40  
There were cameras like the

Unknown Speaker  37:43  
Vinton,

Unknown Speaker  37:46  
which had a

Unknown Speaker  37:49  
an eyepiece

Unknown Speaker  37:51  
ending up in a in a picture about side of a stamp. Yes. Well,

Unknown Speaker  38:00  
the superpower actually was a lot of time to think of the

Unknown Speaker  38:05  
debris, super power, debris

Unknown Speaker  38:09  
that had a slightly bigger, bigger

Unknown Speaker  38:13  
image to look at.

Unknown Speaker  38:17  
Now, the problem

Unknown Speaker  38:20  
with Cameron. I mean, when you're looking through that sort of camera, you've no idea what what's going on outside. And when someone is expected to come into frame, you never knew where they were until they appeared.

Unknown Speaker  38:36  
And that did rehearsals and

Unknown Speaker  38:40  
things to get quite good at that, is the anticipation. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  38:45  
I suppose we did it by timing of dialog or something,

Unknown Speaker  38:53  
or slightly nuts from the assistant.

Unknown Speaker  38:58  
Well, Marx played a very large role in those days, floor marks, oh yes,

Unknown Speaker  39:06  
I'm sure they don't. Now so much, well, they still use it, oh yes, yes, but I don't think as much.

Unknown Speaker  39:21  
Well, I still insist on as far as photography is concerned, because,

Unknown Speaker  39:28  
I mean, the type of actor, or actors who sometimes come up against is no idea at all for

Unknown Speaker  39:37  
certainly,

Unknown Speaker  39:39  
finding a light, finding a light the American Journal, right, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  39:44  
but not

Unknown Speaker  39:47  
some of the younger English

Unknown Speaker  39:51  
well, you can't expect them to

Unknown Speaker  39:59  
in fact, I.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
Had it done? Actually?

Unknown Speaker  40:02  
They frightened our life.

Unknown Speaker  40:06  
When I was in the

Unknown Speaker  40:10  
hitter Mark

Unknown Speaker  40:12  
suddenly cut it, yes.

Unknown Speaker  40:20  
Did you in those early days? Did you work on any special processes at all? Did you ever work on shift and stuff? Yes, I worked on shifting. But when I was an assistant,

Unknown Speaker  40:32  
I used to be assigned to the shift and crew came from Germany. Well, it was Gus dress, wasn't it? Oh, gas was around. But

Unknown Speaker  40:41  
I but

Unknown Speaker  40:43  
Gath is

Unknown Speaker  40:45  
path didn't cross mine. Oh, because he was eating.

Unknown Speaker  40:50  
See, I was

Unknown Speaker  40:51  
once I moved to Denham. I stayed at Denham

Unknown Speaker  40:55  
until I moved on as a freelance photographer. Well, you didn't meet I was wondering if they had come up the shift and people had come up to Elstree at all when you were there.

Unknown Speaker  41:12  
Don't think they did.

Unknown Speaker  41:15  
No, I don't remember the mail. That was when

Unknown Speaker  41:19  
I was at Denham. I think the shift and people came home. With what that was for Henry, the eighth was it?

Unknown Speaker  41:34  
No, didn't they use it on Henry, the eighth to

Unknown Speaker  41:38  
Oh, you weren't there. I

Unknown Speaker  41:45  
now again. What about

Unknown Speaker  41:48  
carrying on on techniques? What about sound recording techniques? Ever they have affected you?

Unknown Speaker  41:55  
Well, they still do, of course, compared with the old days, because the microphones are much smaller, and

Unknown Speaker  42:03  
they they also

Unknown Speaker  42:06  
are different types. Now they've got long range directional mics, which they can use they couldn't before they had a great dangling thing.

Unknown Speaker  42:18  
So that

Unknown Speaker  42:20  
that side has improved a lot.

Unknown Speaker  42:29  
What What changes have you seen in kind of on production staff? You know, first of all, as far as the camera departments concerned, how they changed over the years since you started.

Unknown Speaker  42:55  
I don't think they changed too much,

Unknown Speaker  42:58  
except they have a different role now, because since the days of overtime and working late and all that, because it didn't occur too often

Unknown Speaker  43:09  
in the old days, although there was no official end to the Day,

Unknown Speaker  43:15  
the production manager now is more concerned with

Unknown Speaker  43:22  
coming out well at the end of the week, you know, yes, not behind too much,

Unknown Speaker  43:29  
very often at the expense of the crew.

Unknown Speaker  43:34  
Yes, but some,

Unknown Speaker  43:37  
I won't mention any names, but I

Unknown Speaker  43:43  
I know I'm talking about when they read it themselves.

Unknown Speaker  43:48  
For instance, what very often happens, and this happens on near the old productions

Unknown Speaker  43:54  
sometimes sleep. 34 o'clock,

Unknown Speaker  43:59  
the

Unknown Speaker  44:01  
production manager will be seen hovering on the edge of the set. And you know, he's not there just to come and watch everything. He's got something up his sleeve.

Unknown Speaker  44:13  
And then when there's a slight loud he usually works himself out of the camera, Chief camera man, and says

Unknown Speaker  44:21  
they want to work until about

Unknown Speaker  44:24  
10 tonight.

Unknown Speaker  44:28  
It's always they want to

Unknown Speaker  44:32  
work

Unknown Speaker  44:34  
strange

Unknown Speaker  44:37  
conglomerates somewhere.

Unknown Speaker  44:40  
They said, How would you feel about that?

Unknown Speaker  44:46  
Well, I know the next question. I know the answer I'm going to give anyway, so I then usually reply and say, Have

Unknown Speaker  44:59  
you asked the book?

Unknown Speaker  45:00  
Is

Unknown Speaker  45:02  
meaning the rest of the truth.

Unknown Speaker  45:04  
And he said, No, I haven't asked him yet. I want to get your reaction.

Unknown Speaker  45:10  
Well now full well that if I said yes, I would

Unknown Speaker  45:14  
put them on a spot. They can't say, No, the old man's going to do it. I mean, we've got to back him up, which is not the right way to go about it.

Unknown Speaker  45:23  
So I say, Well, I'll tell you what

Unknown Speaker  45:26  
I got a better idea would be, you call a meeting after this shot,

Unknown Speaker  45:32  
call it. Call the meeting the unit,

Unknown Speaker  45:35  
and I'll put it to them.

Unknown Speaker  45:38  
I will go along, whatever they say, if they want to, if they say they will work out you can put me down as well,

Unknown Speaker  45:46  
which he didn't like. Of course, that wasn't his idea at all,

Unknown Speaker  45:52  
and I would insist on that I wouldn't give him an answer.

Unknown Speaker  45:56  
I said, I can't speak up for the rest of the unit. Named Austin.

Unknown Speaker  46:05  
I couldn't change sides then i.

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
A side two.

Unknown Speaker  0:04  
No, did you didn't get that last sentence? No, yes, I think so. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  0:10  
I think it was only a lot of production people, yes, well, yes, yes,

Unknown Speaker  0:17  
tell me, did you work on any quota quickies? No, never.

Unknown Speaker  0:23  
I never worked on a quote, your education was sadly neglected.

Unknown Speaker  0:33  
I always seemed to,

Unknown Speaker  0:36  
I don't say everything I worked on was on schedule, but not many

Unknown Speaker  0:42  
miles out, because of anything they could do. It to me,

Unknown Speaker  0:48  
did you work on, have you worked on any kind of specialized production, you know, independent frame, or these kind of things? Did you ever only on the fridge

Unknown Speaker  0:59  
when I was

Unknown Speaker  1:01  
never as a cinematographer, when you say on the fringe and, well, when I was a

Unknown Speaker  1:10  
sister, yes, yes. What was that? Then? What kind of production was that? Then you've got,

Unknown Speaker  1:18  
I couldn't give you a name for it, but they were, they were productions that

Unknown Speaker  1:23  
were made at denim studio.

Unknown Speaker  1:25  
So I was at den of studios from the first day, yes, to the last day,

Unknown Speaker  1:34  
which was a period of about 10 to 12 years.

Unknown Speaker  1:38  
In fact, all through the war. Yes, yes. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  1:42  
Now,

Unknown Speaker  1:45  
can you remember the the various cameramen you worked with, and if you like their their methods, or if you like techniques of of lighting,

Unknown Speaker  1:57  
you talk about phrase, he was the first was he the first cameraman?

Unknown Speaker  2:04  
Until you become an operator, really, you're never aware of what, yes, what the camera man is doing. If you're doing focus or focus, you probably would

Unknown Speaker  2:18  
certainly not as a platform.

Unknown Speaker  2:22  
So when did you first become really aware of the the cameras? When I was assigned

Unknown Speaker  2:29  
to pig made in

Unknown Speaker  2:32  
and I met Harry straddling,

Unknown Speaker  2:38  
I thought his his technique was pretty good.

Unknown Speaker  2:42  
Can you remember

Unknown Speaker  2:44  
his technique?

Unknown Speaker  2:49  
Well, at first it was black and white, yes.

Unknown Speaker  2:55  
Well, it's just really the technique, which, if you described really about black and white. We did both together. Yes, yes. Kind of picked his own black and white.

Unknown Speaker  3:10  
Did he? Did he have any particular What should I say? Style?

Unknown Speaker  3:19  
It's very difficult to define style in some respects, yes, but yes, yes, it is yes,

Unknown Speaker  3:27  
yes, yeah. I suppose you could say I've got a style which is different to fairly young Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  3:35  
What is it? Is it? Is it the approach? Is the approach different? Do you think

Unknown Speaker  3:44  
it could be?

Unknown Speaker  3:51  
It's the, you know, it's the approach. So, if you like, well, for what a better word the problem you

Unknown Speaker  4:13  
I don't know how I can describe this

Unknown Speaker  4:16  
anyway, Harry straddling, You've given work. But then, then, who next? Remember

Unknown Speaker  4:25  
Harry, on and off for the

Unknown Speaker  4:28  
years. I think I

Unknown Speaker  4:33  
was with, I think

Unknown Speaker  4:36  
I went back to Bob, crass, do

Unknown Speaker  4:43  
which was the last operating

Unknown Speaker  4:49  
did he have you know? Did he have a different approach, as far as you can remember, or was it

Unknown Speaker  4:56  
really it's the two general questions a strange thing.

Unknown Speaker  5:00  
It is,

Unknown Speaker  5:01  
seems to be a sort of general question, because

Unknown Speaker  5:05  
if I can remember that now, I would have remembered it on the first day my patient

Unknown Speaker  5:12  
thought,

Unknown Speaker  5:14  
what the hell would bother done here? Yes, you, Michael, remember?

Unknown Speaker  5:20  
Yes,

Unknown Speaker  5:23  
so it's really, I had a go, and it didn't look right. I thought, Now wait a minute.

Unknown Speaker  5:30  
One thing I know he never had was two shadows of anything yes

Unknown Speaker  5:34  
and Noel did Harry straddling. So I thought, well, that's a good start, and I've always follow that technique. It's really then a question of

Unknown Speaker  5:45  
doing it.

Unknown Speaker  5:47  
It is doing it and not not learning by route or by book. It's doing it

Unknown Speaker  5:53  
also to be doing it with whether

Unknown Speaker  5:57  
either director or producer is reasonably patient, not slow.

Unknown Speaker  6:07  
Backs you up.

Unknown Speaker  6:11  
Now, of all the cameramen that you worked with as an operator,

Unknown Speaker  6:17  
which one you know has, if you like,

Unknown Speaker  6:21  
given you the most help and encouragement.

Unknown Speaker  6:31  
Well, Bob

Unknown Speaker  6:34  
always did,

Unknown Speaker  6:41  
and so did Harry.

Unknown Speaker  6:46  
And actually, those two probably took most of the time, yes, of my operating

Unknown Speaker  6:57  
Then Now coming to directors again, in that particular period, which was the, which is the one you found the most sympathetic, if you like, to to an operators problem. Oh, that's doubt.

Unknown Speaker  7:18  
Well, we're going to use a lot of pictures. Yes, we're going to come to those.

Unknown Speaker  7:23  
Yes, we're going to come to Tony's pictures later.

Unknown Speaker  7:28  
Can you can you remember, you know Tony's method of working?

Unknown Speaker  7:35  
Whose method Tony as Chris,

Unknown Speaker  7:38  
method of working? Do?

Unknown Speaker  7:46  
Um, what's what kind of you know, stood out most to you?

Unknown Speaker  7:50  
Well, he was very sort of the

Unknown Speaker  7:55  
very patient chat,

Unknown Speaker  7:58  
providing the person who knew what they were talking about or doing, and that applied to actors as well,

Unknown Speaker  8:07  
and

Unknown Speaker  8:11  
but he was such a nice man, personally that,

Unknown Speaker  8:16  
you Know, one was out of one's way to help. I

Unknown Speaker  8:30  
which, which, perhaps, director has been the most difficult for you. As an operator, I

Unknown Speaker  8:40  
I don't know

Unknown Speaker  8:58  
that's a loaded question. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  9:01  
there were a difficult ones. I'm tired of running because there's a quite a number of

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
cameramen directors I've worked

Unknown Speaker  9:20  
with, ones with unreasonable demands of, if you like, really, I suppose. Well, I never really had very much problem with any directors, really, because the time

Unknown Speaker  9:32  
I got to that stage, really,

Unknown Speaker  9:37  
as an operator, I was,

Unknown Speaker  9:41  
I think, considered a fairly good operator,

Unknown Speaker  9:46  
and I used to work out all the

Unknown Speaker  9:48  
setups, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  9:52  
and help in that respect. And so they treated me with certain amount of respect because,

Unknown Speaker  9:59  
well.

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
You were privileged in a way, in as much of working at Denham, and

Unknown Speaker  10:05  
you didn't get, if you like, the, I won't say Riff Raff, but you didn't get the the Lower, lower grade of directors. Oh, no, no. So in that respect, you were privileged better

Unknown Speaker  10:19  
English directors or

Unknown Speaker  10:22  
continents. Continental, right? Or American, yes.

Unknown Speaker  10:27  
Now, during the war years you were, you were denim right the way through, weren't you?

Unknown Speaker  10:36  
When war started,

Unknown Speaker  10:40  
I,

Unknown Speaker  10:41  
I I was placed in that

Unknown Speaker  10:44  
reserved occupation, occupation thing,

Unknown Speaker  10:48  
ostensibly to do

Unknown Speaker  10:52  
films for

Unknown Speaker  10:55  
the

Unknown Speaker  10:57  
moi COVID.

Unknown Speaker  11:06  
I think it was the MOI they were

Unknown Speaker  11:09  
boosting films may have ended up with them.

Unknown Speaker  11:16  
So you know you were, you were at Denham right the way through the war, most at dinner, certain

Unknown Speaker  11:24  
time during war,

Unknown Speaker  11:29  
with some American pictures being made like

Unknown Speaker  11:33  
One particular Yank in the RAF, yes,

Unknown Speaker  11:40  
well

Unknown Speaker  11:42  
as an operator, I was assigned with Ronnie meme

Unknown Speaker  11:47  
to do the

Unknown Speaker  11:49  
English locations for that picture, which meant working with the American Air Force in England.

Unknown Speaker  11:58  
I think we went up to somewhere like air or something like that.

Unknown Speaker  12:05  
That was quite interesting.

Unknown Speaker  12:16  
Let's, let's

Unknown Speaker  12:18  
go to a different kind of face it. Can you

Unknown Speaker  12:23  
remember when you first got involved with act?

Unknown Speaker  12:29  
Was that up at Elstree?

Unknown Speaker  12:32  
No, that was at Denham,

Unknown Speaker  12:36  
a long time for the other unions.

Unknown Speaker  12:39  
What are your recollections of those early days Denham, with act at Denham.

Unknown Speaker  12:48  
Well, there was this sort of thing going on. You know

Unknown Speaker  12:52  
that a union, we didn't know what a union meant. For example,

Unknown Speaker  12:58  
we didn't have a union in those days as such. And

Unknown Speaker  13:06  
then we heard mate like Percy Dayton, yes. And Percy Dayton, who was a boom, boom man, that's right.

Unknown Speaker  13:16  
And John Dennis.

Unknown Speaker  13:18  
John Dennis,

Unknown Speaker  13:20  
he wasn't quite so involved. I don't think SAS fish he was.

Unknown Speaker  13:27  
I don't remember them as any particular act figure.

Unknown Speaker  13:32  
What do you think act standing was before the war?

Unknown Speaker  13:40  
Well, I thought it's pretty good as far as the crews are concerned, that I don't think the production people like to say that. No,

Unknown Speaker  13:48  
they obviously did.

Unknown Speaker  13:51  
Did you go into did you go into it for recruiting at all?

Unknown Speaker  13:57  
Personally, I didn't know. Did you ever hold any positions in Act?

Unknown Speaker  14:07  
What do you think the No, the standing is now?

Unknown Speaker  14:12  
Well, I think it's essential,

Unknown Speaker  14:17  
if only, to combat some of those products and managers.

Unknown Speaker  14:26  
Now, let's, let's go now. Let's, you know, let's really get down to the the as it were, the nitty gritty your career now,

Unknown Speaker  14:36  
your your first break, lighting break, was on Caesar and

Unknown Speaker  14:43  
Cleopatra. Now tell us the circumstances of that, how that came about,

Unknown Speaker  14:58  
Caesar, Cleopatra, wasn't it? Mm.

Unknown Speaker  15:05  
And

Unknown Speaker  15:19  
shall i Let's, let's,

Unknown Speaker  15:24  
now, yes, how did that? How did that kind of come about, that you

Unknown Speaker  15:29  
took over, or CO lighting credit on that,

Unknown Speaker  15:41  
because Bob crasker started that, didn't he? Bob crasco started it. I was the operator, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  15:47  
and whole

Unknown Speaker  15:50  
story of disaster, because

Unknown Speaker  15:54  
Bob crasco started it. Bob was a sick man, you know, he got diabetes in those days,

Unknown Speaker  16:02  
and

Unknown Speaker  16:05  
it proved too much for him on the season Cleopatra, and he had to leave,

Unknown Speaker  16:11  
and Freddie young

Unknown Speaker  16:13  
came to take over.

Unknown Speaker  16:16  
So I operated for Freddie,

Unknown Speaker  16:21  
and then the picture reached the stage where I had to go to Egypt for exterior.

Unknown Speaker  16:29  
And

Unknown Speaker  16:36  
for some reason I didn't want to go to Egypt. I'd already been and it didn't impress me too much. But

Unknown Speaker  16:44  
of course, before this, I have to tell her my standing with Gabriel Pascal was pretty high,

Unknown Speaker  16:52  
because just before I done big mate, yes, yes,

Unknown Speaker  16:58  
and made a barber, I think,

Unknown Speaker  17:02  
yes,

Unknown Speaker  17:04  
as an operator, yeah, has operated, yeah. And then along came season, clear packer,

Unknown Speaker  17:12  
and he wanted to direct it

Unknown Speaker  17:15  
well.

Unknown Speaker  17:19  
He couldn't. He I don't think he could have directed a bunch of school girls crossing over crossing

Unknown Speaker  17:32  
he certainly needs some help getting the shots of setups. I

Unknown Speaker  17:41  
think the strategy, I think, which kind of cannon men

Unknown Speaker  17:45  
in those days were very loath to do all the setups and the shots, and

Unknown Speaker  17:54  
it used to fall on us as operators, much more than it did on the

Unknown Speaker  17:59  
cinematographer. I'll

Unknown Speaker  18:01  
get a bit more involved. Nowadays, but in those days, it didn't seem to happen.

Unknown Speaker  18:11  
And it all started on.

Unknown Speaker  18:14  
I sure it was made of bother

Unknown Speaker  18:20  
that'll be on another list.

Unknown Speaker  18:23  
Yes, it won't be on that list,

Unknown Speaker  18:27  
on one of these four pages somewhere. I

Unknown Speaker  18:42  
think I

Unknown Speaker  18:44  
anyway,

Unknown Speaker  18:50  
and I did a film called

Unknown Speaker  18:55  
Flemish Flemish farm Yes. Flemish farm Yes.

Unknown Speaker  19:00  
And

Unknown Speaker  19:05  
at the end of that, the producer was going to make another picture, and he asked me if I would photograph it, which was going to be my break.

Unknown Speaker  19:14  
So I said I'd like to do that.

Unknown Speaker  19:18  
So it got right the way through to the contract, almost.

Unknown Speaker  19:24  
I mean, you got as far as the money,

Unknown Speaker  19:28  
and

Unknown Speaker  19:32  
which was 60 pounds a week.

Unknown Speaker  19:35  
That's my first assignment.

Unknown Speaker  19:39  
That wasn't too high for next in a photograph in those days.

Unknown Speaker  19:43  
And then old Gabby came along and he wanted to do this

Unknown Speaker  19:49  
secret pattern. He asked me if I would operate for him

Unknown Speaker  19:54  
if he directed

Unknown Speaker  19:57  
so I said, Well, unfortunately, I'd just be.

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
Offered a picture, photograph.

Unknown Speaker  20:04  
Said, how much I pay you, Jack? I'll match it.

Unknown Speaker  20:08  
So I said, 60 pounds a week. He said, right, I'll pay 60 pounds a week to operate.

Unknown Speaker  20:16  
Overnight. I became the most expensive operator in the business,

Unknown Speaker  20:21  
way ahead of everybody

Unknown Speaker  20:24  
that students got to be, Noel places like that,

Unknown Speaker  20:29  
almost started a riot.

Unknown Speaker  20:33  
So

Unknown Speaker  20:35  
I did the picture, and then at the end of it,

Unknown Speaker  20:42  
we had some, oh, that the crew was going to go to Egypt,

Unknown Speaker  20:48  
and I asked to be

Unknown Speaker  20:51  
dead off that that outfit.

Unknown Speaker  20:56  
So Freddie went to Egypt, and

Unknown Speaker  21:03  
and I think Freddie almost directed the Egypt and the jack card, if took over, a photographer

Unknown Speaker  21:14  
made about five Cameron already,

Unknown Speaker  21:18  
and

Unknown Speaker  21:21  
they went to Egypt, all sorts of stuff left behind on the lot at Denham.

Unknown Speaker  21:29  
The burning down of Alexandria was one of it.

Unknown Speaker  21:34  
And these all done with four grand miniature models

Unknown Speaker  21:41  
stuck up on towers in a distance, and

Unknown Speaker  21:44  
so I did all that

Unknown Speaker  21:47  
with Pascal. He's Eden, go to eat. He stayed at home. And

Unknown Speaker  21:52  
that's what makes me think, I think Freddie did sort of organize a direction out in Eden. I

Unknown Speaker  22:03  
I think that started his bug for directing, because he did try

Unknown Speaker  22:09  
to direct, the didn't work out.

Unknown Speaker  22:18  
So after, after ceasing, Patrick, did you go back to operating, or had you break broken out?

Unknown Speaker  22:29  
Then you went on to then in 46 you did school for seat threats. Didn't you

Unknown Speaker  22:35  
with Peter istinov? That's right. Tell us about working with him. Well, Peters, Peter, you

Unknown Speaker  22:46  
know, we have a great time on that

Unknown Speaker  22:49  
is, he, was he? Was he good to work with? I mean, you know, fine. He's a wonderful personality, but he's understanding, Oh, yes. I mean, it was a very simple sort of, yes,

Unknown Speaker  23:02  
complicated about it.

Unknown Speaker  23:07  
Then, then, then you did

Unknown Speaker  23:12  
well, the sun shines with Tony Rasc with, and that's right, and vice versa. Now, have you got any particular memories about those productions.

Unknown Speaker  23:29  
Rather sunshine, yes, that

Unknown Speaker  23:31  
was that was in 47 studios, yes, yes,

Unknown Speaker  23:38  
Barbara white and

Unknown Speaker  23:49  
never mind the misprint, Margaret, Rutherford.

Unknown Speaker  23:56  
Margaret, Rutherford,

Unknown Speaker  23:58  
Ronald squares, yes, yes. Ronnie squares, yes,

Unknown Speaker  24:04  
any particular memories of that? About that? It was quite a small little film.

Unknown Speaker  24:11  
I think it was entirely in the studio. Then

Unknown Speaker  24:17  
there was vice versa, again with Peter asked enough

Unknown Speaker  24:22  
Yes.

Unknown Speaker  24:27  
And also in 47 there was

Unknown Speaker  24:31  
one called the affairs of a rogue,

Unknown Speaker  24:35  
which

Unknown Speaker  24:37  
the title that went when I did it was called The First Gentleman.

Unknown Speaker  24:43  
The affairs of a robe, I think were American titles, yes, yes, I think it was

Unknown Speaker  24:49  
the first gentleman. Was

Unknown Speaker  24:54  
one of the kings the.

Unknown Speaker  25:02  
Who directed that

Unknown Speaker  25:04  
Cavalcante.

Unknown Speaker  25:07  
Tell me about working with Cavalcante.

Unknown Speaker  25:13  
Well, he was a very nice man,

Unknown Speaker  25:19  
because I'm very friendly with with all the crews,

Unknown Speaker  25:27  
because he had made a reputation for himself, really, in documentary, hadn't he? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  25:34  
was he at home? Do you think in features?

Unknown Speaker  25:38  
Not entirely, I wouldn't think, no.

Unknown Speaker  25:42  
What you know, what was kind of missing,

Unknown Speaker  25:46  
the size of the the enormity of the undertaking?

Unknown Speaker  25:51  
Well, I think one of the problems with him was the fact that he was homosexual,

Unknown Speaker  25:59  
and that didn't inspire confidence in the crew.

Unknown Speaker  26:08  
Really on vacation.

Unknown Speaker  26:13  
Which King built?

Unknown Speaker  26:15  
Built that? I think at Brighton, that pavilion? Yes, George the Third,

Unknown Speaker  26:22  
I think was he was the third

Unknown Speaker  26:25  
gentleman, or George the second. It's one of the Georges. Yes, one of the Georges, because we had a location down in Brighton, yeah, that, yeah. We

Unknown Speaker  26:38  
see a

Unknown Speaker  26:40  
terrible tale sometimes,

Unknown Speaker  26:44  
and even Cabo Canterbury lurking

Unknown Speaker  26:47  
in the shocks on the seafont that brighten up,

Unknown Speaker  26:51  
picking up young lads.

Unknown Speaker  26:57  
I must say, you didn't try anything with any of the crew. I then after that, you even went and did one with John Paddy, a sleeping car. Yeah, quite a few with John Petty. Yes. Now, how did you find about working with John Petty?

Unknown Speaker  27:16  
Oh, he was great.

Unknown Speaker  27:18  
He's a very nice.

Unknown Speaker  27:22  
He it was rather fast. And he was, he was probably the fastest director I worked with.

Unknown Speaker  27:33  
Then, then you went, then you then you did one with a real old time. And she walked forward.

Unknown Speaker  27:41  
He'd come from the silent days. That's right, yes, cardboard Cavalier. I know I was trying to think of his name earlier on

Unknown Speaker  27:51  
Waterford was the one director

Unknown Speaker  27:56  
wasn't that on the

Unknown Speaker  28:02  
which one was a water forward, Cavalier, oh, that was with

Unknown Speaker  28:11  
Sid field. Yes, yes. Hillier,

Unknown Speaker  28:15  
water forward.

Unknown Speaker  28:20  
He was the one director I walked off the set once for the fast first and only time in my life,

Unknown Speaker  28:28  
where was that

Unknown Speaker  28:29  
he wanted some particular shot,

Unknown Speaker  28:33  
which I thought was totally wrong, didn't fit in at all,

Unknown Speaker  28:40  
I told him.

Unknown Speaker  28:46  
I said, Well,

Unknown Speaker  28:49  
you better get somebody else. Goon, I'm not going to do that shot that's ridiculous, something like that.

Unknown Speaker  28:57  
And walked off,

Unknown Speaker  28:59  
slammed the door stage. You know, got outside, a stupid thing to do.

Unknown Speaker  29:08  
What happened?

Unknown Speaker  29:15  
I went back,

Unknown Speaker  29:21  
but he couldn't. He didn't know anything about composition,

Unknown Speaker  29:26  
and I was always very keen on the right sort of composition.

Unknown Speaker  29:32  
It was one of those silly shots he throw in, and it upsets the whole balance of the scene. Yes, yes. I still see it today. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  29:43  
when you then you did another one with John Paddy, Chilton, hundreds,

Unknown Speaker  29:49  
then, then you went and let one for Bernie Noel's. Now, did that present you with any problems? You know? Was it the first time you'd work with a a.

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
Um, a director had been a camera man. Yes, it was actually, did it work out? All right, yeah, we, we got through it.

Unknown Speaker  30:11  
I take it from that, even quite a friendly guy, and I knew him beforehand, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we didn't have any arguments on that.

Unknown Speaker  30:25  
Then, then, then after, then after that, you work

Unknown Speaker  30:30  
with Ken Anakin.

Unknown Speaker  30:32  
Yes, Ken hotel, Sahara

Unknown Speaker  30:36  
and and Eastern offer classification. Yes, yes. Well, yes, it's enough as a star,

Unknown Speaker  30:45  
yeah,

Unknown Speaker  30:48  
well, cameras are right.

Unknown Speaker  30:51  
He's quite a nice guy.

Unknown Speaker  30:55  
I worked with him afterwards as well. Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  31:00  
Then, then you seem to, then you met up and kind of work with David Lean into

Unknown Speaker  31:09  
on sound barrier. Sound Barrier. I missed one out, but, in fact, missed a couple out home at seven. But

Unknown Speaker  31:19  
I think you know, David Lean wasn't involved in that. No, no, no, no. We were involved in sound there when I did it. Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  31:29  
So that was under contract

Unknown Speaker  31:37  
to Yes, and you were loaned out to city guild.

Unknown Speaker  31:40  
That's right, yes. Now that was your, your, your first was that the first time you'd ever worked with David, or had you worked with him as well, quite often as as an operator? Operator? Yes, yes. In

Unknown Speaker  31:57  
fact, you

Unknown Speaker  32:05  
in fact, when he was

Unknown Speaker  32:09  
all the time, he was

Unknown Speaker  32:12  
an editor, yeah, I was

Unknown Speaker  32:16  
an operator,

Unknown Speaker  32:19  
and when he took on directing.

Unknown Speaker  32:23  
I became a cinematographer roughly, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  32:32  
well, he and I used to go and be well together because we were

Unknown Speaker  32:37  
contemporary with the same age. I

Unknown Speaker  32:43  
you know, tell us about working with David.

Unknown Speaker  32:49  
Oh, David's got absolutely no time for anybody who doesn't know what they're doing.

Unknown Speaker  32:58  
He makes no bones about letting them know it.

Unknown Speaker  33:03  
Either

Unknown Speaker  33:05  
he keeps people on their toes. You know,

Unknown Speaker  33:12  
how do you rate David as a director, pretty highly.

Unknown Speaker  33:21  
I wouldn't say he's the fastest director, but no, no.

Unknown Speaker  33:30  
Then you, then you made one with Frank launder,

Unknown Speaker  33:34  
folly to be wise.

Unknown Speaker  33:40  
That's 52

Unknown Speaker  33:47  
can you remember working about working with Frank wortland? Yeah, well, they were quite small pictures, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  33:56  
Then you went and worked with old man, a very nice yeah. And

Unknown Speaker  34:02  
and Juliet too. Yes, yes. Then

Unknown Speaker  34:06  
you went and worked with an old mate of mine, George, more referral and the heart of the matter. Oh, yes,

Unknown Speaker  34:12  
dear old George, yes. Tell us. Tell us about him. He was an act. He was an actors director, wasn't he really Yes? Rather like Carol Reed. He

Unknown Speaker  34:25  
just wanted you to get on with it and leave him alone.

Unknown Speaker  34:30  
Well, he again. You see,

Unknown Speaker  34:34  
although I was the camera man on his pictures, I think

Unknown Speaker  34:41  
I used to do most of the setups. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  34:45  
even no good at that. No, no, no.

Unknown Speaker  34:50  
Then back you go again today. Sorry.

Unknown Speaker  34:54  
You say you used to want very often I would tread where angels theater tread. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  35:01  
And tell him something about something he directed, which I didn't think was very good. And he took it Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  35:10  
And I remember we had a party one night at

Unknown Speaker  35:19  
chippenham

Unknown Speaker  35:20  
that was bar there. And he Trevor Howard was

Unknown Speaker  35:28  
there, all getting a bit sloshed and sentimentally known.

Unknown Speaker  35:33  
George stood up, made a speech, thank the crew, and thanked everybody there for the work and work.

Unknown Speaker  35:45  
He said, on the face of it, he said, I'm the director the perspective. He said, really Jack did host of it,

Unknown Speaker  35:52  
yes, sort of thing, he looks like a tribute. Yes, yes. Nice tribute.

Unknown Speaker  36:01  
Betty, too, she worked on some of those beers, yes, but then, then after that, you're back to David again, aren't you on Hobson's choice,

Unknown Speaker  36:11  
yes, which is one of my favorite pictures,

Unknown Speaker  36:14  
yes.

Unknown Speaker  36:17  
But my real favorite, I think, was

Unknown Speaker  36:22  
some of summertime in Venice with Catherine Epley, yes, yes, yes. With David Yes, yes, again.

Unknown Speaker  36:33  
Now you worked with Wendy toy, yes, tell us about that, because there's very few women featured directors around I can't remember, but was it the pot boiler?

Unknown Speaker  36:51  
Rather, it probably was, yes, you know, then the name the techman mystery. I've never

Unknown Speaker  36:57  
heard what it

Unknown Speaker  36:59  
was about. But but she was a sweet Goon. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  37:09  
Then there's the deep blue sea with lit vac.

Unknown Speaker  37:13  
Yes. Did

Unknown Speaker  37:18  
you enjoy working with him? Yeah, he was, he was very good,

Unknown Speaker  37:22  
nice man,

Unknown Speaker  37:27  
technicians, Director, would you say?

Unknown Speaker  37:30  
Or an artist?

Unknown Speaker  37:32  
Well,

Unknown Speaker  37:33  
I think he's probably split it actually. I

Unknown Speaker  37:46  
a director,

Unknown Speaker  37:50  
good for the crew, if he's willing to crawl around on the floor. Well, do fine occasionally, yes, yes, some of them can't even get down there if they

Unknown Speaker  38:02  
did they will never get up again.

Unknown Speaker  38:08  
Then, then, then came summer madness, which you say, is the one you enjoyed probably most.

Unknown Speaker  38:17  
Well, maybe because it was a nice location. Yeah, I

Unknown Speaker  38:24  
thought she was very good in it.

Unknown Speaker  38:27  
Yes. I mean, it was a very enjoyable film. I must say, I agree with you.

Unknown Speaker  38:34  
What year you want now, now I'm into 55 Well,

Unknown Speaker  38:40  
then, then from, from that one you went back and worked with George on the march here,

Unknown Speaker  38:53  
no recollections of that, really. No now.

Unknown Speaker  38:59  
What about then? Guy Hamilton, who, who's this was when he was just coming up, wasn't he, or he made a little bit of a name for himself.

Unknown Speaker  39:09  
Yes,

Unknown Speaker  39:11  
that's Charlie moon.

Unknown Speaker  39:14  
Well, that was

Unknown Speaker  39:17  
Charlie moon.

Unknown Speaker  39:20  
That's in 56

Unknown Speaker  39:23  
because on my list, I haven't got the years. Oh, I see

Unknown Speaker  39:29  
on every page, I see

Unknown Speaker  39:35  
Charlie Moon was in 56

Unknown Speaker  39:38  
the same years you did Anastasia, we looked back Yes,

Unknown Speaker  39:46  
before the cry,

Unknown Speaker  39:49  
wasn't

Unknown Speaker  39:51  
it? Before the choir picture, yes. I.

Unknown Speaker  40:01  
A long time before that.

Unknown Speaker  40:06  
I think, I think it was just picture before the choir.

Unknown Speaker  40:12  
No, no, yes, it was, sorry, bigger barn, yes. Well, Anastasia was, I think, the picture before, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  40:22  
Well, they were both bomb pictures, yes, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  40:26  
some of them take care of the whole year. Yes.

Unknown Speaker  40:33  
Then you worked with Albert Lewin

Unknown Speaker  40:39  
that was in the States, was it? Ah, tell us about that working in the state. Well, that was a

Unknown Speaker  40:47  
friend GM, that was a location, location in Mexico.

Unknown Speaker  40:56  
Was it an Was it an American Crew? Uh,

Unknown Speaker  41:06  
a mind me. Mike,

Unknown Speaker  41:15  
no

Unknown Speaker  41:21  
problems with it.

Unknown Speaker  41:39  
Then, then you went on to, you know, the bridge over the river cry. Now that must have been quite, quite something from your point of view. Oh, yeah, that was a very big picture.

Unknown Speaker  41:54  
Yeah, you know, kind of what are your recollections on on that

Unknown Speaker  42:02  
grant? Right? Must have been quite a few headaches there.

Unknown Speaker  42:09  
Well, most of them were kind of fighting things like leeches,

Unknown Speaker  42:18  
physical problems. Yes, no problem. Otherwise, no technical problems.

Unknown Speaker  42:26  
It was one of the earlier cinemas, but of course,

Unknown Speaker  42:34  
it called for it, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  42:48  
That's it. I'll give you my one. Do

Unknown Speaker  42:54  
you want to say any more about the the bridge over the river? Cry because that

Unknown Speaker  42:59  
that certainly shot your reputation up. Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  43:08  
Well, I mean,

Unknown Speaker  43:10  
while we were doing, I mean, I always thought it was going to be a great film, but I didn't think it would

Unknown Speaker  43:20  
get me an Oscar, or anything like that, but,

Unknown Speaker  43:23  
but then you never do think, no,

Unknown Speaker  43:28  
I was always one, That

Unknown Speaker  43:31  
one that you've got to be never, could you

Unknown Speaker  43:48  
then, you strange thing about that after that? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  43:53  
I discovered afterwards,

Unknown Speaker  43:56  
it was the first year of the Academy Awards that they decided to

Unknown Speaker  44:03  
have

Unknown Speaker  44:08  
up to that year, there'd always been two awards, a black and white and a color award. And then they decided there'd only be one you.

Speaker 1  0:00  
He was saying is that there'd always been two autism and I think for sure that I always had the impression that the Americans had the idea that it was an American monopoly, because it was always an American involved somewhere, and not many foreign cameramen. I say foreign, I mean foreign to America had won it. There were Bob crasco and Guy green. I think English people would run it.

Speaker 1  0:42  
Well. This one Oscar up for grabs, and I won it the first year that happened, because it always been where somebody wins the color award, we get, we do at least get the black and white. Well, there wasn't, there wasn't one for them. So I thought that gave it a bit more worth, worth having.

Unknown Speaker  1:19  
Did you go to receive it? No,

Speaker 1  1:21  
I couldn't. I was given all the facilities, except they didn't pay the fare. Yeah, I was invited for the ceremony and so on, but I was on vacation in Austria with with Joe Lozi, the Gypsy and

Unknown Speaker  1:54  
the Gentleman. Was it? Something's gone wrong? Here, has it? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  2:11  
I've got those down here. That's not

Speaker 2  2:13  
right, isn't it? Oh, well, well, then it's, it was Mankiewicz, was it? I

Speaker 1  2:25  
but I can remember what happened there. There was

Unknown Speaker  2:38  
Anastasia. Yes,

Speaker 1  2:46  
then living after they picture in Mexico with

Unknown Speaker  2:53  
living idol, yeah,

Speaker 1  2:54  
living idol Yeah, I then had to go to the New York office of Sam Spiegel on the way home, yes to meet him and David Yes to talk about the choir, yes, which was in early stages then writing really, and then I was

Unknown Speaker  3:22  
going to come. To come home, I was going to do the Anastasia picture Yes, which took about two months, yes. And that's how it was. And I went from the Anastasia picture to to the choir, yes.

Speaker 2  3:49  
Then after the 9057, that's right, yes. Then the date, yes, then then after that, according to my my list is you then worked with Joe Losey on the Gypsy and the gentleman. However,

Speaker 1  4:08  
Joe had just been, he was one of those.

Unknown Speaker  4:19  
Yes, he was one of the Hollywood sudden, yeah, tell us about working with Joe. Joe Dan's

Unknown Speaker  4:25  
All right, I've gone quite well with a Joe.

Unknown Speaker  4:35  
Was he a technicians director, or could he mix it?

Unknown Speaker  4:41  
I would say he mixed it, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  4:56  
Then, then you, then you went and worked with Lewis Allen. Another time, another place, another time, another place. Anything to say about that?

Speaker 1  5:11  
No except that it was the first time for a while, and I worked with what I call a true American actress, Donna Turner, oh yes, yes, because previously, there had been a state there was,

Speaker 1  5:39  
I really noticed it when it came to the first thing she looked for was her key light, yes, yes, which is always a good sign. And I remember she had a little bump under one eye. But she told me about, she said, always have trouble with this. I looked at it, and I thought, Well, I think we can fix that, if she's clever. And I had a little guy spotlight made up, just, just made a little half inch circle, where the bad spot work? I told her about this, and that was the first thing she used to look for when she got on into a scene, where is it? Jack? She could walk across a whole room and end up in front of the camera a big close up and put that spot right on where it should go. That bliss never showed up. She was very pleased about that, but I doubt that I could have done that with a non Hollywood client.

Speaker 2  7:01  
What What? What do you think is, what is it that does that?

Speaker 1  7:06  
Well, I think I don't know. I think that those sort of girls are much more concerned with the way they look, you know, yes, than performance. Some of our people, yeah.

Speaker 2  7:21  
Then, then, then after that. One, what do you want to talk any more about that? No, then after that again another. Let back the journey,

Speaker 1  7:34  
the journey, the journey we did in Austria. That was another one of my favorite ladies, Deborah Carr.

Speaker 2  7:51  
Then we then we come to 59 with this looks like quite a busy year, in fact, because you got jet storm was, breaker end of field, and Guy Hamilton's Devil's disciple. And then suddenly, last summer, man quit.

Speaker 2  8:18  
Did you feel the strain of those kind of years when they you had three Rome, not really big guns on the truck. What about Devil's disciple again? Guy Hamilton again?

Unknown Speaker  8:41  
Well, that was made in English. Wasn't an English film, yes.

Unknown Speaker  8:52  
What about the Mankiewicz film? Suddenly, last summer, where was that made? Where? Well, yeah, that

Unknown Speaker  9:00  
was made in Spain.

Speaker 1  9:11  
That was Liz Tyler and Peter Finch. Oh, yes.

Unknown Speaker  9:18  
Now, what about working with Liz Taylor.

Unknown Speaker  9:22  
No problem, no

Unknown Speaker  9:24  
very professional

Unknown Speaker  9:27  
Noel problem. To the production department, I think to us, yes.

Speaker 2  9:37  
Then in 1960 you know you've renewed your partnership again with Tony Asquith on the middle millionaires. Yes, that's right. Did that give you any problems that one? No, that

Unknown Speaker  9:53  
was quite fun. I mean, she's a good looking girl. Yes,

Speaker 2  9:58  
that's Gina. Learned and Peter. Peter summers, when I wasn't it was Oh Sophie. Lauren, yes, yes, right, yes. Oh, dear. That's a clangor. I

Speaker 2  10:25  
then, then you work with Fred zinnerman, so you know you're getting into your you're almost done the A to Z Yes, that's right, yes. I

Unknown Speaker  10:46  
What was he like to work with him.

Speaker 1  10:52  
I had a little argument with him once. What was that about? Well, we were usually in Australia. I Yeah, and contrary to normal belief, Australia is not coward with kangaroos, rabbits, and I remember we had many seeds where we had to get kangaroos and release them properly, men or something,

Unknown Speaker  11:35  
and they would Go. And on one occasion, and we did it, and shot was okay, nothing wrong with the shot and zoom and call for the boys with the with the Land Rover and go and get them back. Well,

Unknown Speaker  11:59  
that meant chasing after the kangaroos. Now, in the area we were working, it was sheep,

Speaker 1  12:07  
not a sheep farm, exactly. It was grazing land for sheep, and they've got this animal, this Dingo dog. Yes, you've probably heard about go for the especially in the lambing, when they use helpless and can't defend so far anyway, so that the whole area is intersected with with fences of Barb one, yes, yes. About that high, I suppose, yes, that four or five feet high. Yes. Now these, these four kangaroos that have done their job in the shop were then chased by these Land Rovers into an area where the line of barbed wire either side and of course, the Land Rover go fast and make them very often they tried to get away by jumping these getting paled on the top,

Unknown Speaker  13:30  
thumbs out. Then they bring them back, you see, and throw them out of the Land Rover, and on one occasion, used them again. I didn't like the idea, so

Speaker 1  13:46  
I went there and I said, I'm not very keen on this method. I said, once you let those kangaroos go, let them go, they're back in Australia. Then you see all their country. I mean, they're used to those areas. So he said, All right, is that a bit? Can I rely on that? Because I don't like photographing animals that have been hurt. Throughout my career, I've always stood up for horses, because sometimes horses have put through more than they should earn. And he said, No, absolutely, I won't do it again. So of course, the time comes. One afternoon, we had a shot of a lovely family, Mitcham and Deborah, trotting down a road as a horse drawn cart in the background, at bars and bushes, some poor pot that's. Struggling with trying to hold a kangaroo down, you know, without being seen, until Noel for release.

Unknown Speaker  15:10  
And they went, you see, two mile, amazing. I heard someone say, get them back. Gentlemen, did one more take they sent off the land rovers. And I said, what if they bring them back?

Speaker 1  15:27  
Fred? I said, I'm not going to photograph it. He didn't believe. He thought I was joking. That rover comes back in due course. And these emaciated, poor animals, they were bleeding white white blood, even worse, he said. But Jackie said they only got time for one more shot, is we've got as I said, I'm sorry. You know, we did come to an agreement. And he said, Yeah, I admit that.

Unknown Speaker  16:12  
I said, No and no way. I left him and I walked over to the camera,

Speaker 1  16:21  
pack it up so when I'm not using it again today, I remember Nick Rowe was the operator on that occasion. He looked up at me, was lean down by the camera, and he looked at me the paint expression on his face Jackie's car. Did that? Bloody all. Done it. Put it away, I'm not using it, and I walked over to my car, just waiting on the side, because it was the end of the day. And unbelievable. Here we were, middle of Australia, the camera man refusing to shoot.

Unknown Speaker  17:05  
But I knew I was right, and there everybody knew why I'd done it. That evening, I was in my room and one of the assistants came to me and he said, Oh, got a message.

Speaker 1  17:26  
Mr. Zimmerman said, would you have dinner with he and his wife this evening? Okay, tell him I will. So, due course, dinner time came up and I went into the restaurant. They were sitting there. I just deleted them as though nothing happened. I didn't say anything about it too, and then suddenly stood up, pretty bad, across me, sorry. Jack burst into the theater. Really poor old boy was so upset he knew he was wrong for the I think he took a chance on whether I would really pull the cameras off or not. I was adamant about it, and he apologized, and that was the end of it.

Speaker 2  18:35  
Then you worked, then you went and worked with Norman Panama on the road to Hong Kong, yes.

Speaker 1  18:46  
Panama, Franks. Oh, no one Noel and Panama, yes, his other half was Frank.

Speaker 2  18:58  
Oh, it's not on the not on the credit list. Yeah. Anyway. Anything to say about that

Unknown Speaker  19:08  
great time working without crossb?

Speaker 2  19:10  
Yes, yes, that was, I mean, that's, that was quite something. Didn't do that because, I mean, how come

Unknown Speaker  19:22  
the how do these things come anyway?

Speaker 2  19:28  
Because, I mean, they were, they were all they used to be 100% American, yeah. Did you have your own crew on this one? Or did you that

Unknown Speaker  19:42  
was, it was an enjoyable picture to work on with it with Crosby and hope,

Unknown Speaker  19:51  
yeah, I think so.

Unknown Speaker  20:07  
This evening, we want to run a bit of a road to somewhere, so you can see what dogs look like she did 15 years before.

Speaker 1  20:38  
So I went to her bed, you realize I'm 16 years older than when you do that picture in flight, she was as well.

Speaker 1  20:59  
But she didn't expect to look as good as she did. I don't think but BECTU, not like she was in the original show.

Speaker 2  21:13  
Then you, then you, then you, then you did a James Bond. Was that? But that was the first, was that? The first one with Jay Lewis.

Unknown Speaker  21:27  
Live Now pay later.

Unknown Speaker  21:34  
A lot of night working High Street.

Unknown Speaker  21:47  
No night vacations are was a bit of a bind on they

Unknown Speaker  21:53  
were asked in formwood High Street.

Speaker 2  22:00  
Then after that, you did 55 days to Pete King with the Nicholas Ray,

Unknown Speaker  22:09  
yes, that was quite nice.

Unknown Speaker  22:15  
Does anything say really about it was that

Speaker 1  22:21  
no except that Nick Ray was taking the old about the first day we started to shoot. Had to leave the film right up there. And then he had some heart problem, I think,

Unknown Speaker  22:36  
what he was going to photograph it? No, he

Speaker 1  22:38  
was going to, Oh, I see,

Unknown Speaker  22:44  
I see,

Unknown Speaker  22:48  
he went off and didn't come back. That was story of my life.

Unknown Speaker  22:57  
No, not quite, no, no, then you've got Sorry,

Unknown Speaker  22:59  
I'll do that? Oh, we see

Unknown Speaker  23:11  
the one that Ty Hamilton took over.

Unknown Speaker  23:16  
What? Charlie moon? No,

Unknown Speaker  23:18  
not Charlie moon. The

Unknown Speaker  23:22  
what? Devil's disciple. Devil's disciple.

Speaker 1  23:26  
What was his name? He was the one who made his name by directing whiskey galore, eating picture, which got

Unknown Speaker  23:38  
Yes, yes. Sandy McKendrick, wouldn't it? Sandy, yeah. Sandy McKendrick,

Unknown Speaker  23:44  
yeah. He only lasted a few days. But the funny thing of all was on on that bond thing, I can't find it on here.

Unknown Speaker  24:03  
Well, that bond was 62 Oh, wait

Unknown Speaker  24:07  
a minute, 62 Casino Royale.

Unknown Speaker  24:12  
Oh, that was later on. Was it?

Speaker 1  24:15  
Well, the only bond thing either, but a thorny bond, which was for Well,

Speaker 2  24:23  
you did live, live now and pay later. That was a bond, surely.

Unknown Speaker  24:41  
62 i Two.

Speaker 1  24:50  
I don't know who made out this list, but they've forgotten to put all the. Years?

Speaker 2  25:01  
Yeah, I haven't got them. I haven't got the months. I

Unknown Speaker  25:04  
got the years. At least I did have that organized once.

Speaker 1  25:17  
I think whenever I've shown this to anybody in some perspective employer by a number of pages,

Speaker 2  25:25  
actual films. Well, I would have thought you say I worked with them all from A to Z, and you'd be right

Speaker 2  25:39  
anyway. And then after the, you know, after the 55 days to peeking, you come to 63 but with the Valley of the Fallen, which is Andrew Martin,

Speaker 1  26:01  
tell you the story about the yes at Katherine royal Yes, yes. David Niven did the car. And that was only fun, because yes midden was in a strange sort of way. I don't know how they could copy the script, but he was a bond, you see, yes, trying to think this one director on here isn't on my list.

Speaker 2  26:37  
Well, Casino Royale was 1967 Yeah. The actually Christina royal had five directors and did it at Houston, Ken Hughes Val guest, Parrish and Joe McGrath, I would have thought

Unknown Speaker  26:56  
quite a basic. Joe McGrath,

Unknown Speaker  27:00  
yeah, he's televisions. Man, yeah,

Speaker 1  27:04  
we met one day in a pub somewhere in town, and then came the day to start in the studio, and we had this enormous set in the studio, the actual casino with all these tables and all the players and things going on, and Joe and I were looking for a setup on one on one occasion, on the First day of this thing, when it wasn't the first day, it was a bit later on. We had been working about a week. I think we were no shot looking at sort of lights,

Unknown Speaker  27:56  
of chandeliers, and it was very all nature. And the runner came from the office and said, Oh, Mr.

Unknown Speaker  28:05  
McGrath, I asked if he could spare a man up just to go to the office.

Speaker 1  28:15  
So he said, Okay, not very convenient. But I'll come. He said, Jack, you know what we were. And he went, star, finished off whatever shot it was. I didn't see him for two months. That moment. He never came back? Ever What do I do it? He went into the office. He virtually said, Well,

Speaker 1  28:57  
let's go and ask what they usually say. The Americans do lady, Joey, laughed it off.

Unknown Speaker  29:08  
COVID, yes, so you had Houston as well on that, didn't you? Oh, yeah. How did you get? How did you get on with John Houston? Oh, very

Speaker 1  29:22  
well. Oh, no, he's all right. And Ken Hughes, Ken didn't do any unit. I was. See, we had another unit.

Unknown Speaker  29:33  
What about Val guest? Same? No,

Speaker 1  29:36  
I did it with Val guest. He was

Speaker 2  29:48  
a funny man. Now we actually, we got a bit out of order, but coming, coming back to Henry Hathaway's circus world,

Unknown Speaker  29:58  
oh yeah. Oh yes,

Speaker 2  30:05  
yes, that was 64 and you Well, we've missed out to you know, Tony's VIPs,

Unknown Speaker  30:15  
John Wayne, Claudia Carter, now,

Speaker 2  30:29  
the yellow Rolls Royce, of course, Tony's yellow Rolls Royce, that was A nice picture. Yeah, I enjoyed that.

Unknown Speaker  30:42  
Well, lovely, a lovely kind of cast, wasn't it?

Speaker 2  30:50  
Then when in 65 Battle of the Bulge

Speaker 1  31:00  
with Connecticut, yes. What about that? Well, excuse me, a tough picture to shoot, because they all took part in the winter in Spain, in the mountains, extremely cold. I remember that

Speaker 1  31:31  
the first time I've ever seen an enormous tank out of control, completely out of control, going down a hill, bringing trees down and everything on the snow. I

Unknown Speaker  31:43  
was skidding, skidding, no control.

Unknown Speaker  31:46  
Toilet, couldn't straighten it out. God, one after the other, they were going down this

Unknown Speaker  32:01  
hill, if I remember, I think the Spanish tanks were that the army used in those days in Spain were American tanks on some deal that got the arm that's from, and I remember it was always very confusing, because you'd see a lot of tanks, and we never knew where they represented German or American.

Unknown Speaker  32:36  
And then we discovered that, I think the German tanks had a nose cap on a gun, another old, bulbous thing, what for? I don't know. That's how we discovered which was which. Then we knew what sequence we were on, German or

Unknown Speaker  33:04  
American. But apart from that, I remember most of us the cold. We were up in the mountains north of Madrid, and they talk about sunny Spain, but it can be Johnny Cole as Warner.

Speaker 2  33:27  
Did it produce any problems as far as the camera department were concerned? Not not freeze ups or anything. Never

Speaker 1  33:34  
had any trouble with that in all places I've been to Switzerland so a lot of the modern cameras now have got heaters inside, also in the desert, pictures I've done, which we haven't even talked About.

Unknown Speaker  33:57  
Now we're coming to those later, later on. I

Speaker 1  34:07  
sometimes temperatures, 120, yes, pretty warm, yes, yes, never had any problem with the film.

Speaker 2  34:22  
Now after Battle of the Bulge you you went back and did modesty Blaze with Joe Losi and that big art, wasn't it?

Unknown Speaker  34:31  
That was it? Yes,

Unknown Speaker  34:34  
was that an enjoyable picture?

Unknown Speaker  34:37  
We went to

Speaker 1  34:52  
mainland, that's the place where mount Aetna is. Oh. Sicily. Sicily, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  35:07  
Hmm. And how did you find working with Joe Lozi?

Unknown Speaker  35:10  
Okay,

Speaker 2  35:16  
and this then brings you up to kenangan again, the long jewel. This is 67

Unknown Speaker  35:30  
long duel in Spain.

Unknown Speaker  35:36  
Nothing particular, then for

Unknown Speaker  35:50  
it must have been asked after Casino Royale,

Unknown Speaker  35:53  
yeah,

Speaker 2  36:05  
then, then after casino royal in 68 you did via Rides Again. Buzz, coolick, anything special about that? I

Unknown Speaker  36:31  
I was shouting, oh,

Unknown Speaker  36:36  
really loud. Yes, did he make a good film? What was it called a via Rides Again, or Vila? There was just an average

Unknown Speaker  36:51  
picture outstanding about it

Speaker 2  36:55  
again. This is American, isn't it American? Well, wait, where was it? Made Mexico? Was it not a spaghetti western?

Speaker 1  37:11  
Spaghetti? It wasn't a Western actually, no sense. No.

Speaker 2  37:18  
Presumably it was about pancha. Via, then, then you work with Saul swimmer, Mrs. Brown, you have a lovely daughter,

Unknown Speaker  37:33  
really well. Outstanding about that.

Speaker 2  37:43  
Then you went and worked for hitchco. I'm in 69 to pairs now. What about working with hitch after so many long years,

Speaker 1  38:00  
he's a very nice man, good director, of course, yes, I had worked with him once before, though, as an operator. Yeah, yeah, before that's

Unknown Speaker  38:22  
a shipwrecks in Cornwall.

Unknown Speaker  38:26  
Not vessel for froth, no Blanche Furie, no.

Speaker 2  38:36  
Anyway, anyway? Had he by this time, had he lost his rather strange sense of hum? He still got it, did? He didn't play any tricks on you. No,

Speaker 1  38:57  
I remember he was upset an actress we had, and he said, I consider that all actors and actors are just puppets. He said, I just wind them up, put them on the floor, let them on and away. Not very finished by them with confidence, not very diplomatic.

Speaker 2  39:25  
No, were you pleased with Topaz from your point of view? From your point of view, were you pleased with the result on Topaz?

Speaker 1  39:38  
Oh, yes, but it wasn't a very good it was a typical Hitchcock picture.

Speaker 2  39:47  
Then after that, you you worked with Lee Augustine or Pogo Steen? Yes, hard contract. I.

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
Yes, photos in Spain.

Speaker 2  40:04  
You've done a lot of work in Spain, nine throws in Spain altogether.

Speaker 2  40:13  
Now, then in 70 you've got down the, you know, puppet on us on a chain. Jeffrey Reeve,

Unknown Speaker  40:31  
does that bring any memories back at all?

Speaker 1  40:35  
Well, puppet was all shot in Amsterdam. Uh huh. Yeah, it ended up with rather dramatic chase in speed boat than outboard motor type boats,

Unknown Speaker  40:52  
night shots.

Speaker 1  41:01  
But we had marvelous cooperation from the police in Amsterdam, because there were two sorts of police. There's the the ordinary road, yeah, police and no the canal police. We we were using the canal. So we

Unknown Speaker  41:22  
had the had these two guys in these and these outboard boats, one representing the baddie and the other one was the goodie,

Speaker 1  41:37  
chasing each other through these canals. And they're all interwoven canals. You know, there's all bridges and lock gates and all sorts of things. The police literally kept the whole place open for these boats, doing about 40 miles an hour most of the time. And I

Speaker 1  42:05  
and then we had the problem of crowds coming and watching, which was responsibility of the other police, yes, trying to keep the areas on the roads clear. Yes, clear, but they did it. Do. Amazing there. When it wasn't a great film, it was all right, but it was wasn't a big one.

Speaker 2  42:33  
Then in 71 he worked on a film called The playroom, which Ken ernin directed, but that

Speaker 1  42:42  
fizzle out. What happened? Ran out of money.

Speaker 2  42:45  
Oh, I see. Oh, one of those, which

Unknown Speaker  42:50  
means most.

Unknown Speaker  42:59  
Did it have the makings of a good film. Do you know,

Unknown Speaker  43:03  
I see that's probably

Unknown Speaker  43:07  
Noel Spencer's stuffy old bank. Now, what was that one?

Unknown Speaker  43:15  
That was a commercial?

Unknown Speaker  43:18  
Oh, you'd start, you, you've got, you've started doing commercials, or had you been doing many? I

Unknown Speaker  43:23  
haven't done many. I just did one or two at one point.

Unknown Speaker  43:27  
What do you what did you, you know, what was, what were your feeling about commercials?

Unknown Speaker  43:35  
Rather hard work for not very natural result.

Unknown Speaker  43:41  
Yes, that's true.

Speaker 1  43:45  
Never seem to want to get two days worth into one. Yes,

Speaker 2  43:53  
there's almost this great drama, as if you're doing Ben Hur

Speaker 1  44:01  
No, I've never really worried.

Speaker 2  44:10  
Then, you know, in 73 you went to Italy to do an Italian film. So Visio desorta, what? Empty

Speaker 1  44:20  
three, yes.

Unknown Speaker  44:31  
What was that about?

Unknown Speaker  44:34  
What they call

Unknown Speaker  44:36  
service, sorta, who wrote that? I don't know. I don't know. I was wondering if it produced any language problems for you at all. You I think about Spanish. Well, no, it's servicio. So it must be Italian. Do. I was wondering, you know, yes, Italian. It was an Italian film.

Unknown Speaker  45:14  
It's, it's a blank. I.

Speaker 1  0:01  
Sign for now. It was yes, export service. It was called,

Unknown Speaker  0:13  
yes. You see

Speaker 1  0:16  
massimilar for the director's name. I think it was, it

Unknown Speaker  0:31  
us, yeah.

Speaker 1  0:36  
Well, let I see on your list, it's, it's down the XB of 72 I do

Speaker 2  0:40  
you remember

Speaker 1  0:45  
about it at all? Now, did you have an English crew on that? Or was it Italian crew?

Unknown Speaker  0:54  
I had English crew

Unknown Speaker  1:00  
so you didn't have any language problems. We

Unknown Speaker  1:02  
saw half of it in Rome, yes, little bit in London. First London, then Rome, then Beirut.

Unknown Speaker  1:16  
Was it all occasion

Speaker 2  1:18  
to actually all occasion? A little bit of set rope. Where

Speaker 1  1:22  
was that? In Rome, in Rome, where sin is Ito? No

Unknown Speaker  1:28  
one of the small ones.

Unknown Speaker  1:37  
Was anything remarkable about it at all. I

Speaker 2  1:44  
Yeah, only that the director was a previous cinematographer. Oh, and I gather he wasn't a very good one, but what he used to say to

Speaker 1  2:01  
me then, same year that you did another My word is, my bond. Was then another commercial for Ronald, Ronald Spencer, or was it a film? I should think it's probably a commercial. Well, it's 70 it's 73 really. It follows on after the Italian escort service.

Unknown Speaker  2:35  
I think that was a commercial idea about a bank, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  2:38  
that's what it sounds like, doesn't it? Yeah, is probably a follow on from the stuffy old bank.

Speaker 1  2:47  
Then in 74 again, according to my list, here he is the the last chapter with David stringingham. Tringham, does that mean anything?

Speaker 2  3:02  
That was just a little picture that John Dart produced, uh huh, and I think he wanted to promote an ad that was a former assistant with us on some papers, yes, and let him direct it. Nothing I remember outstanding about

Speaker 1  3:25  
it, then the beast must die. This was made for an American, American television.

Unknown Speaker  3:35  
Yes, let them keep it.

Unknown Speaker  3:40  
Was it a full length or was it a series? Or what

Speaker 2  3:43  
it was supposed to be, a full length picture? I don't what happened to it. I never saw it anywhere except in the state, in the studio. Yes.

Speaker 1  3:55  
Then there's again, a cat and mouse directed by Daniel Petry. I Petri

Unknown Speaker  4:07  
No, who's the

Unknown Speaker  4:11  
actor? I don't know. I have no idea. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  4:28  
that was a name. Is that the American name of it, I wonder, or was it the final name?

Unknown Speaker  4:38  
What they do with him? Why they want to change it anyway? Yeah,

Speaker 1  4:43  
quite exactly. Then in 75 it looks like you were resting as the expression goes between pictures 75

Speaker 1  4:58  
because the next, next credit I've got. What is Emily with? You know, for Henry Herbert,

Unknown Speaker  5:16  
Emily is the famous Emily, you know, yes,

Unknown Speaker  5:18  
yes, Paul,

Speaker 2  5:20  
Little John do she didn't know much about that film or anything. No, not really.

Speaker 1  5:34  
Then, then you, then you made this, I suppose the desert film, wasn't it. The message, the message with

Speaker 2  5:44  
the messenger of God, yes, a card, yes.

Speaker 1  5:48  
Now, tell us something about a card. Where did he Where did he come from? Do you know he originally came

Unknown Speaker  5:55  
from? Well, I don't know why he was Assyrian

Unknown Speaker  6:03  
to her, yeah,

Unknown Speaker  6:07  
and he used to operate from Beirut offices in Beirut as a film Yes,

Speaker 2  6:22  
he'd he managed to get, get this film together, you know, got the money for it and everything.

Unknown Speaker  6:29  
What was what was he like to work with? He was very

Unknown Speaker  6:32  
nice, very good man.

Unknown Speaker  6:35  
Was he not a great technical director?

Unknown Speaker  6:42  
Gave think you know he didn't objection to me, very nice, spoke into it. So he was very nice,

Speaker 1  6:58  
because that had Tony Quinn, wasn't it. Did it produce problems for you at all? No,

Speaker 2  7:11  
not one little problem, but Tony Quinn, it was rude to the camera crew one day, and I don't allow that.

Unknown Speaker  7:22  
And he started swearing in front of a lot of young girls from the production office, which I didn't think was very necessary. And sometimes those sort of things would go over the head of most of you know he didn't quite catch

Unknown Speaker  7:49  
quickly, step forward and stop the shot, take a cut and everything, and then go in a bit of a dressing down

Speaker 2  8:05  
and time that we didn't tolerate hanging we'd like that You know, crew, hope you respect it in future. I i The next picture I did incidentally that year I had doing nothing. After that, I wasn't actually doing nothing. We'll prepare that the next one, the Oman workshop picture to came with a car, yes, game with Quinn. I remember we were at we were on occasion during the beginning of the Omar Mukhtar picture, and Quinn hadn't arrived to do his start his part. And this day he did arrive. So he was brought out to the unit left, and he saw me, but I had a job to wait, walking along with the production department. And finally he spotted me, and he kept tearing across with his hand out straight. He said, I promised we could this time Jack, he will be, because sometimes you've got to do that. You know, don't do it at the right time. It's no good thinking about it later.

Speaker 1  9:48  
But now, after the you know, the message, or the messenger of God, you worked with Harold snowd and Ray Cooney on not. Now, comrade,

Unknown Speaker  10:03  
well, that was a little experimental film. Made this thing already, I think, I think they make it, and they used

Speaker 2  10:17  
a TV camera. Man, yes, and they couldn't see any eyes or anything. He was using the wrong technique, yeah, and they asked me if I was going to do about it, which I did. I just treat it as an orderly film. It's quite if I would normally,

Speaker 1  10:52  
that is the only way to lighten it. Then, then you did another TV for the states Beauty and the Beast. Was that a was that a film, straight film, or another one? You want to forget that

Unknown Speaker  11:06  
one? Then you

Speaker 1  11:09  
went resting again, then, then you did wild geese with maclegal. Yes, yes. What about that?

Speaker 2  11:18  
Well, that was alright. That was quite good family. You know, we were in South Africa. Yes, very nice.

Speaker 1  11:25  
Is that the is that this, is that the son of Victor?

Unknown Speaker  11:29  
Yes, yeah. What

Unknown Speaker  11:33  
was he as a director?

Unknown Speaker  11:36  
Oh, he was all right. I mean, for that, for that victory, yeah, I wouldn't think he'd be a type of director for love scenes. I mean, this was a pretty type of picture, yes, yeah. Got out of seat with a table. All right now, yeah,

Speaker 1  12:09  
then, then, then you've got another year when you, you know, weren't really doing anything. What was your reaction to these, these, you know, the the industry as it were? Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  12:25  
Well, I didn't mind him, really, because, you know, I had a fair amount of work. Yes, all round, yes. We used to go down to Dorset do something. Yeah. I didn't worry me that I wasn't doing anything.

Unknown Speaker  12:45  
Did you? Did you have an agent?

Unknown Speaker  12:48  
Yes, yes, I'm an agent. I've got Morris Lambertville film rights, who looks after that side of it. I

Speaker 1  13:03  
did he get, you know, did they get too many jobs that you wouldn't have got? Do you think

Unknown Speaker  13:10  
I should think one or two? Mostly,

Speaker 1  13:14  
that's true. Very true. Yes. Then, then that. Then in 1980 you know, you did the lion of the desert, which you talked about, anything, anything other than the story about queen, saying he'd be a good boy. On that one, a good boy? Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2  13:42  
I don't mind if they get a bit that up, but you know, there's no reason for the

Speaker 1  13:50  
summary, yeah. Now, since that, since that, the lion of the desert, have you done anything else? Or

Speaker 2  14:08  
no, nothing else I was going to do. Taipan, yes. I think that was last year. Yes. For the low enters and I went out to China. Yes, it was last year. I went to China and did a big rec, very interesting. Actually, I've never been to China before. Had quite a nice trip.

Unknown Speaker  14:46  
Who was going to direct it? You

Speaker 2  14:50  
know, there's one there. I don't think he's got Ellis Island. Have

Unknown Speaker  14:58  
you got that? No, I haven't. No. No,

Unknown Speaker  15:01  
that was a TV thing for American TV, and also a Florence Nightingale picture directed by a man called Daryl Duke, who was then going to do Taipan, and he asked me if I'd do Taipan then. So I went out to China, and that's where I checked and did the nothing.

Unknown Speaker  15:40  
Nothing there. There's nothing there.

Speaker 2  15:50  
I did the recce, yes, and it was gladly directed by this director as well. I know it was because I had to. I came home after the record, almost before it got underway at the split stroke, yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker  16:11  
So yes, I see so that

Unknown Speaker  16:13  
Jack card, if I have

Speaker 1  16:19  
now over your kind of 43 years as a cinematographer, lighting caramel no Chief, which film has given you the most satisfaction? I

Speaker 2  16:43  
for the toss up between summertime and in Venice and the choir, I suppose

Speaker 1  16:58  
they're very two, very different styles. Are they different? Yes, yes. I mean one in the way, spectacular spectacle, isn't it, in a way, and the other one is very close knit, comedy.

Speaker 2  17:17  
Not a bad location. No, lovely here in a photograph, because

Unknown Speaker  17:27  
almost whichever way you point the camera,

Unknown Speaker  17:29  
good, don't have to

Unknown Speaker  17:31  
look shut your eyes

Unknown Speaker  17:34  
and put it down and turn it over you.

Speaker 1  17:43  
Yes, then you know which is, which is the, which of the, which is the film, but so it's giving you the most headaches. And why?

Unknown Speaker  17:55  
I've never really had a headache art film, yet, really,

Speaker 1  18:01  
you've never gone no kind of gone home at night with butterflies.

Unknown Speaker  18:10  
No, I don't worry about.

Speaker 1  18:16  
Tell me, did you have a did you? Were you? I want to have a nice, close relationship with the labs always, always yes, yes. Well, that, in fact, is one of the keys, isn't it? Yes, one of the keys,

Unknown Speaker  18:34  
which was your favorite lab, except they all go through their ups and downs, don't they?

Speaker 2  18:41  
Well, I said two favorite letters, technical and denim.

Unknown Speaker  18:51  
How much did you rely on a meter?

Speaker 2  18:59  
Well, I don't rely on that, except to make sure that I do the labs as near Damn it and negative as they want. Yes, yes, and you can only really do that by reading the light. Because, yeah, you can't always say at the end of the time day, your eyes as good as they were when you went in the morning. No, so I always, I usually read key lights early on interior not, exteriors very much. And I'll do the rest for the

Speaker 1  19:46  
yes with the glass. Yeah. What kind of meter Do you? Did you use?

Speaker 2  19:53  
Where I use a meter that the rank group? I used to make, or have made,

Unknown Speaker  20:08  
Jaro, which is JR Haran organizer, which is it's rather big and clumsy compared with a lot of Yeah, but

Speaker 2  20:23  
it will read from zero to 20,000 foot candles, which, yes, not that you want that very often.

Speaker 1  20:32  
What you put in the boost, you put in the boost you change the scale, the on the on that one. Well, that's

Speaker 2  20:41  
the open scale. Yes, I see from zero, yeah, you've got to put things in, yeah, sure, yeah, because that is the act open cell region, yes, from zero to about 10, yes, yes. And then the next one will go up to 1000, I think it is, and so on. But where I have found it useful, as if you're in those Switzer for instance, when up in the mountains, in the snow slopes, where everything you can't use an ordinary just give a false reading. So I read the sun or the daylight with it, yeah. Well, the sun at that dual altitude, and when it's clear sky and everything is

Unknown Speaker  21:41  
just under 20,000 foot candles. In fact, if you read the sun now today, it'll be about

Speaker 2  21:51  
probably 15 to 20, I suppose. Really Yes, yes. Direct sun, yes, yes. So I call that the tea light, yes, yes. It's no different than putting a little lamp up there, putting on outer foot. Yes, that's right, yes. Basically the same principle. Now everything else I do by I do all the filling Yes, by eye on exterior, with Well, we've been using brutes until recently, which is a big monster for yes, but when you're working with light of that intensity, you have to have Something like that to make any effect. Yes, put something in the shadows,

Unknown Speaker  22:49  
but a brute nowadays is being superseded by the HMI lamp, which is a kind of assimilated I lamp, approaching the carbon arc lamp, which bruises, yes, Essentially, is a very hot Lance with a small, very small filament,

Speaker 1  23:23  
tiny filament, or arc, I suppose you like

Speaker 2  23:29  
the bit that works. Yes, that's right, yeah, the gap, yeah, but it's intensely Yes, right? Yeah. I

Speaker 1  23:50  
if you could start again, would you want to change course?

Speaker 2  24:03  
Well, if I had to start the game with the same tools so far, I might want to, but that's not what you mean.

Unknown Speaker  24:13  
No, no, no.

Unknown Speaker  24:17  
Oh yes, I've enjoyed it. Really,

Speaker 1  24:19  
you wouldn't really want to change, not really, if one could start again. I've had the odd

Unknown Speaker  24:26  
opportunity to direct, but it's always been, should I be a third class director or first class? Yes, I've seen a photographer in the camera, where it's always won. I

Speaker 1  24:43  
mean, what? It's perhaps a difficult question to ask. But what do you think of the the attributes for a good director? I.

Speaker 1  25:02  
Was that a ridiculous question to ask? Just say that again. What do you think are the necessary attributes for a good director?

Speaker 2  25:22  
I mean, it might sound frivolous, but over the years and working with directors of all types, I think they they should all be able to ride a bicycle, start with and boil an egg to the right.

Unknown Speaker  25:40  
In other words, be practical,

Speaker 2  25:43  
not totally, but yes, to understand how an actor is doing his best trying to write a penny farthing or something, he would have no idea of doing himself otherwise, I think he ought to do what he's asking the others to do.

Speaker 2  26:10  
Because I've seen David Lean, for instance, getting absolutely mad with a prop man because the egg that we were looking for an insert or something just before the camera pulled back that carry on cracked his name, But it wasn't the poor mantle that they cracked. I

Unknown Speaker  26:48  
it. I mean, I could stock an egg cracking, putting in the water, just put a pin hole in it. Yes, it went crack.

Unknown Speaker  27:03  
I know that, but I think a direct talk.

Unknown Speaker  27:09  
Have you any family who gone into the business?

Unknown Speaker  27:20  
Well? Thank you, Jack, thanks a lot.

Unknown Speaker  27:23  
Well, if it doesn't work out,

Speaker 1  27:27  
when, when we switched when I switched off, just now you said you always enjoyed photographing women.

Unknown Speaker  27:36  
Yes,

Speaker 1  27:39  
yes. Say a bit more about that.

Speaker 2  27:49  
Well, I suppose, because it's been my lot to do pictures that they've been in. I mean, people like Ingrid Berkman and Sophia Lauren

Speaker 2  28:12  
or nana Turner, of course, Nana Turner, Elizabeth Taylor, Elizabeth Taylor, of course. I not necessarily in this order, no, no, no,

Speaker 1  28:28  
is it that it's a particular challenge, or

Speaker 2  28:34  
it is a challenge, I mean, compared to cowboys?

Speaker 1  28:41  
Well, yeah, men's faces are character faces, and isn't it? Really,

Speaker 1  28:53  
did you ever, did you ever go in for soft focus at all? Or diffusion?

Unknown Speaker  29:00  
Oh, diffusion. Not so much soft focus.

Speaker 1  29:04  
Well, no diffusion, really, yes, yes, no soft focus was before, before diffusion.

Unknown Speaker  29:18  
Usually when the system got the sack.

Speaker 1  29:26  
Yes, technically, well, who was, I mean, from, from the from the point of view of the women, who was your Who was your favorite?

Speaker 2  29:40  
Really favorite, yes, Deborah. Deborah, yes, oh, no, I like that, yeah,

Speaker 1  29:47  
sure. But was that a particular, particular face that attracted yours? It? Personality, self, personality,

Unknown Speaker  29:56  
yes, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  30:21  
I tried to check on somewhere,

Unknown Speaker  30:30  
there was A the garden that you said. Ava Gardner, I

Unknown Speaker  30:49  
Vivian Lee

Unknown Speaker  30:52  
Ingrid Bergman, yes.

Unknown Speaker  30:57  
John Hopkins,

Unknown Speaker  31:00  
that's old style,

Unknown Speaker  31:09  
Barbara, white gene Kent,

Unknown Speaker  31:11  
well, they were not very well known. No, not nowadays.

Unknown Speaker  31:19  
Oh, Pat rock,

Unknown Speaker  31:22  
perfect woman, yes, oh, hell.

Unknown Speaker  31:28  
Don't worry, I picked him up.

Unknown Speaker  31:36  
Barbara Mullen, of course, it was

Speaker 2  31:37  
a puppet, but she was just a character. Yeah, meaning that that's thought, yeah.

Unknown Speaker  31:52  
Thank you.

Unknown Speaker  31:59  
Well, Ann told you, Margaret Layton with with

Speaker 2  32:09  
David Lee directing her too? Yes, yes. You talked about Catherine heaven. Yes. Cathy.

Speaker 1  32:25  
Now, that's a better that's a lovely face. Most interesting place, Catherine. Happened. She's no beauty, but,

Unknown Speaker  32:31  
oh yes, lovely face. Yeah.

Speaker 1  32:36  
Was it? It? Was she easy to work with? Oh yeah. You.

Speaker 1  32:46  
Did she realize she, you know, she wasn't a beauty in the in the ordinary kind of Hollywood chocolate box?

Speaker 2  32:53  
I think so. Of course, she had been, yes, yes. I mean, she's been through that. I

Unknown Speaker  33:09  
only remedy when I like, Yes,

Speaker 1  33:11  
oh, there was the Brienz girl too, Brenda, Brian z i

Unknown Speaker  33:23  
i was in, but

Speaker 1  33:25  
she only, I think she only did one film I've seen to disappear. She was in

Unknown Speaker  33:29  
Hobson's choice, Brenda de benze. De benze Do

Speaker 1  33:49  
When, when, when, when they was when they were scripting. Did they call you in at all on consultation for film when you know when lining films up,

Speaker 2  34:01  
well when they're rounding them up, yes, not so early, sometimes the Script period. But

Unknown Speaker  34:19  
which was your your favorite producer?

Speaker 2  34:23  
Or did you ever get that close? I think must have a card, really.

Unknown Speaker  34:30  
He was producer and director.

Unknown Speaker  34:31  
Was he? Yes, he's a very nice man, and he always thought about the crew a lot. For instance, when we went out to Libya on this

Speaker 2  34:48  
these desert pictures, he said, we'll go by charter. And he said there's very empty seats on the charter. Even above the crew, they can bring their boys or girlfriends, or those kids or whatever, really just free, which they did. And they were also included on all the food on location, if they were to come out and eat with the crew, you know, yes, and that was all very good, good stuff.

Unknown Speaker  35:25  
Well, it just helped to make a happy crew.

Speaker 2  35:27  
Made a happy crew, yeah, yes. Every now and then he said, Let's have a party. I'm fed up with this.

Unknown Speaker  35:36  
We'd have a party because he had a problem, because, in liberty, of course, his drink is absolutely taboo, and

Speaker 2  35:51  
to take a crew of film technicians away for a year and not have a drink a bit much,

Unknown Speaker  36:01  
but he pulled my two strings with with his nibs there, Gaddafi. Gaddafi, I think a number of eyes were shut to certain goings on. COVID, have any trouble anyway?

Speaker 1  36:37  
Well, I think, I think that's probably it okay. You think

Unknown Speaker  36:41  
I can't think of anything else i.